If it’s like the way these things usually work, they would be paid a flat fee for their services and that’s that. What the songwriters get is something else, though that all depends on the contracts with the programme makers. The money is obviously going somewhere, but very likely not the musicians. Give your money to Patti!!
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A record is worth and will sell for whatever punters are prepared to pay and record company marketeers know that. Same for used records, look at the ridiculous prices being asked on Discogs these days, dealers must be doing very well and the artist gets nothing from the sale of those records.
As a CD only owner the high prices for second hand cd’s does not happen very often. Original analogue recordings can command high prices. Out of interest a while back I looked on Discogs to see what the price of Vashti Bunyan’s Another Diamond Day was selling for. It was the same as I paid 20 years ago - £14. The original analogue vinyl record was selling for £30,000. Another one was a lot cheaper at £20,000!
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Good afternoon everyone,
David Byrne of Talking Heads has a very interesting book entitled “How Music Works” (Canongate, 2012), which I recommend. He has a chapter on Business and Finances, which seeks to set out how musicians’ contracts work. To say that it’s complicated doesn’t begin to describe it, given the many components, competing factors and professions involved. I came away from it thinking that now is both the best time and the worst time to be a musician.
No doubt the situation has evolved since 2012, but the opportunities for musicians may never have been so numerous, but the failure rate is proportionately high. Into the mix there seem to be further confounding factors - the musicians who are motivated by expressing their creative endeavours, the musicians whose motivation is making money and the musicians who struggle to reconcile both of these drivers.
Further, there is a fairly clear “collector” imperative among some comsumers, where recorded music is purchased as an investment, rather than a vehicle for listening pleasure (I assume that the LPs mentioned in RWC’s recent post will never be assulted by a stylus!). I suspect that the sellers are just as bemused by the prices paid as are the rest of us.
All of this leaves simple music-lovers in a rather difficult position. Notwithstanding the arguments over the relative sound-quality of CD, LP and streaming, buying music brings dilemmas if we wish to consider ethical matters beyond simply enjoying the tunes. The proper remuneration and treatment of the artists are amongst these matters. This may not be so important in areas such as some classical music, jazz and blues, as many of the artists are no longer with us (!), but current, aspiring artists are a different matter.
One strategy might be consistently to buy new “hard-copy” products. Hopefully, this would ensure that artists receive the amount designated or confirmed in their recording contract, but we consumers cannot know how fair this might be, nor can we know how much money all of the other individuals in the “chain” might command, legitimately or not. This strategy is by far the most expensive for a confirmed music lover, according to the content of this and other steams, but might leave one with a fairly clear conscience.
Another strategy might be to shrug one’s shoulders and accept that the consumer has little impact on these matters. The amount of dissent on these pages suggests that, if a group like us, with a shared, passionate and resource-intensive hobby can’t agree on much, then a worldwide movement to treat artists fairly is unlikely to gain much traction.
A third strategy might be the “least worst” of the three offered here and might be the most personally rewarding. We could buy whatever we choose - new or second-hand. We could go to as many gigs as resources allow, we could be sure to pay our licence fee/subscription, we could donate regularly to services such as Radio Paradise and we could support - either through attendance or donation - charitable or voluntary organisations which nurture emerging and aspiring artists. Examples of this type of organisation are The Oh Yeah Centre in Belfast, Northern Ireland or Le Sans Reserve Centre in Perigueux, France. I use these examples because I know them, but I am certain that there must many, many more.
It could be agrued that, as mostly older consumers of a life- and society-enriching art form, we have some responsibility actively to support its development and, actually, there are many ways of doing this with a fairly clear conscience. I’m sure that forum members will be able to offer many more interesting approaches.
Best wishes.
Brian D.
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Very good post Brian D and will certainly track down a copy of that book you cite.
One of the best effects of the modern music industry is that insane ticket prices for frontline bands have driven me away from those headline acts and into supporting and attending local gigs with cover bands or up and coming artists more and more. I can’t afford £200 a head for the missus and I to see the rolling stones anymore so I go to see the Rolling Stoned (who are excellent) instead for £30! We also go to folk clubs, blues gigs and second tier gigs like Deacon Blue or Del Amitri or Richard Ashcroft of the Verve where ticket prices are nearer £50.
More money flowing to those lower down the pecking order can only be a good thing.
Brg,
Jonathan
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It can also be argued that we have done just that by buying mor records than probably the average member of the public, ditto going to concerts and gigs, and some of us have been doing that for many years. In my case I have declined gradually in frequency of both over the decades, partly as music styles changed and partly as performace prices inflated ridiculously accompanying moves to larger, less involving venues. I feel no compulsion to support the music industry generally, just the individual artists who give me pleasure, not that they are all still around. (In respect of gigs I haven’t seen any big names for many years now, my habits being more akin to JanathanG’s.)
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I have been looking at vinyl prices of Amazon purchases over last couple of years, nothing is less than 50% more, one example … i paid £26 in June last year …
Well, there has been high inflation of lots of things over the past two years - a lot of food 50%, some more, so why not vinyl?
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Dear Innocent Bystander and Jonathan G,
IB, you make a good point and there are certainly plenty of forum members who have contributed significantly to the music industry over many years. Although I have a modest music collection compared to some here (a mere 1,000 CDs), I do hope that Messrs Dylan, Young, Morrison, Wilson and many others are appropriately grateful for my contributions to their not-inconsiderable fortunes!
However, it seems that some streaming services pay infinitesimally small amounts of money per play/download. Of course, it may be the case that a new song by a young artist may get many more plays in the first year than the young Mr Zimmerman sold LPs in the early 1960s. I suppose that we will have to wait for about 60 years to find out how the youngsters have fared!
I’m in full agreement with you too, Jonathan G, although there are one or two big names whom I would pay to see, before it’s too late (!), but there are plenty of excellent smaller bands, artists and cover bands who are, frankly, terrific. Two cases in point are Grainne Duffy, an Irish blues artist who works hard, tours energetically and performs superbly (recent tickets £16.50) and The Australian Pink Floyd (forthcomong gig ticket £33.00)- brilliant!
Best wishes,
Brian D.
J – it is all fiendishly complex. When you think of a band playing a village hall (writing & playing their own stuff), the set-up and promo expenses are likely to be minimal, the rent for the hall modest (but all payable come what may!), and there is obvious risk that tickets may not sell etc. So, if the band is pot-less, somebody may front these X’s but want them back before the band get some dosh. You’re in to a venture capital financing picture. Of course, once the band is well-known/established the uncertainty of ticket sales (much upfront money - but s/t refund) is removed, and the venues often get bigger with commensurately increased costs to stage. And bands like the 'Stones are tour-orientated in driving revenue and profit, relative to their record sale returns.
Getting a ‘record deal’ isn’t 100% different, in that a recordco will fund an album and do all the promo, and provide the artiste(s) with some living X’s, perhaps even an ‘advance’ BUT they will want prioritised return of their ‘investment’ before the artiste(s) get a major share – this is why A&R teams are really playing with venture capital on behalf of a major recordco, and the contract terms skewed towards rewarding the recordco (and the contracts will reference all the returns on the ‘rights’ involved in a production). Of course, it they hit big with an artiste, the rewards can be enormous, which covers the losses & break-evens on others. Unfortunately, this can make A&Rs ignore large sections of the music market, as the financial returns even for a talented musician don’t make sense to pursue. Obviously, there are many independent labels out there, with industry distribution arrangements, who are prepared to take a risk and see the talent.
If you go right to the top of the market, the negotiating balance between a recordco and an artiste(s) who own their own rights (in the main) flips, as the former are anxious to sign/retain for the sales & income/profit flow, so much so that they will offer ‘advances’ (often significant – £’millions) against envisaged future delivery of content and revenues/profit. Even better if the artiste(s) have legacy catalogue which is spooling revenue, profit & cash.
When you delve in to the financials of some of the sizeable recordcos, you’ll often see ‘unrecouped advances/monies’ which are the advances paid over and, sometimes, it’s clear a recordco has been very brave with the level of advance and/or the artiste(s) concerned isn’t fulfilling their side of the deal e.g. they were contracted to deliver say 3 albums over 5 years, but have only delivered 1!..so what happens next??
Streaming has come along and changed many of the reward metrics and access to market in how music is consumed. This is all evolution.
It’s a fascinating industry to try and understand, far too big for a forum like this.
Good point, but vinyl seems to have bucked the trend as CD’s and streaming subscriptions haven’t increased by 50%?
Interesting question – and I have no knowledge about current production/distribution costs of any of the different media. Streaming online perhaps is a bit different, partly because the cost is not related in anyway to materials, but possibly because the model is different: Lose some vinyl sales and yes, you lose that income but people might buy something else (a CD?!), and they will be back when prices drop a bit, while with online streaming, on the other hand, subscriptions are a long-term revenue model, whence losing someone might have a longer term effect? As for CD compared to vinyl maybe it’s material or other production related costs haven’t inflated in price as much as those for vinyl, though perhaps that seems less unlikely. Otherwise of course there is supply and demand: with CD they realise that if they increase the price too much people just download to get the same thing. or even turn to illegal copying. Against that with vinyl it is known to be a fashionable niche area, therefore potentially can stand higher prices.
Maybe some economists may be able to offer some more finance-based theories!
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It’s not that long ago I’d frequently buy a new album from Qobuz and get the vinyl copy too.
The price differential is now considerable and vinyl quality often poor, I really struggle to justify £25+ for an LP these days.
Well this is my take on music today vinyl or CD or streaming.
Over the years I have amassed a rather considerable collection of Vinyl which I have been playing over and over again. I found that I very rarely buy new music by new artists because I just don’t like dare I say it any of today’s artists.
I will always listen to new music via streaming and that for me is good enough as I will never buy it. So I have saved a lot of money that way which is very different than years gone by when we used to take a chance. Not like it so it went at the back of the collection never to be heard again.
I also have a very considerable collection of CD’s which I also play over and over again.
I found that over the last 5 years I had been buying remastered / remixed Vinyl that I already have what’s the point of that. There’s only so many Dark Side Of The Moon’s you need.
That brings me on to the price of Vinyl which I don’t really care how the brake down of money is distributed between whoever all I know that spending £35 - £ 50 pound on a record that I already have is just madness.
Then we get to the quality of Vinyl which to put it bluntly is shocking. You take the vinyl out of the sleeve and hold your breath and hope.
So to close this rather long piece I have stopped buying Music full stop. I have enough and still enjoy what I have.
I know other people will have a different take on this and that’s fine.
Thank you for reading
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Lots of really interesting insights/views here and it seems many of us have reached a point where we’re no longer going to see as many first division bands due to costs and we’re not buying so much vinyl for the same reason. As many have said it’s becoming hard to justify £35-£40 for an album on vinyl when the sound quality is often poor and frankly isn’t any better than Tidal anyway.
My own theory on vinyl pricing is that the record companies have found themselves in the enviable position of global demand exceeding the world’s capacity to press vinyl (160m units currently). I read somewhere recently that it’s not just the pressing capacity either, it’s the lack of lacquer producers (down from 2 in the world to 1 after the Transco fire) and the lack of cutting lathes. Apparently Neumann stopped making cutting lathes in the mid 1980’s and so haven’t made any for over 35 years!
I found this article especially fascinating in highlighting the challenges: Apollo/Transco: What is a lacquer and how will the crisis affect the vinyl industry?
Faced with such supply constraints I suspect that Warner and Universal have decided to jack prices from £25 to £35-£40 to stem demand and maximise profit. It remains to be seen if this will ever be reversed when new pressing capacity comes on stream. Even if it does we will still need somebody to start making cutting lathes again and the production of lacquers to ramp up. In short every stage in the chain needs to increase capacity and the industry as a whole seems to have been wrong-footed by the increase in demand for vinyl.
It looks like Michael Fremer was right all along when he predicted a resurgence of vinyl, it’s just a shame nobody believed him!
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Dear Jonathan,
I’m tempted to say that the recent increase in LP sales may be something of a “dead cat bounce” (apologies for that awful phrase), given that, by modern standards, vinyl is a fairly ancient technology. Of course, it is possible to achieve excellent sound quality from the medium, but the cost of transduction from vinyl to excellent sound is enormous by most people’s standards and the quality of the source itself seems to be very inconsistent at the moment. The cost of a fully equipped LP12 would buy a fairly respectable full system which could give its owner many, many hours of listening pleasure and the ability of buy said LP12 is now probably restricted to small numbers of very enthusiastic middle-aged or older (mostly male) individuals .
I recently watched one of Michael Fremer’s videos in which he demonstrated a turntable of eye-watering expense, size and weight. Playing an LP recorded in the 1950s, 60s, or even the 70s (i.e. 50, or more, years old!) on such a beast seems odd, to say the least. Perhaps, of course, the industry would like owners to re-cycle all of their older records for newer re-mastered, enhanced, deluxe versions at greatly increased prices - and there is much enthusiastic discussion of the relative merits of such products on this forum.
I don’t think that any of us can really believe that the producion of vinyl records is on an upward trajectory which will restore its once pre-eminent position in the market. You speak with authority on the state of hardware production in the supply chain and this fundamental issue does seem to spell “the end”! I read the article you mention and I suspect that there was a little bit of “clutching at straws” in the concluding paragraphs.
About 20 years ago, I sold my LP12 and all of my LPs for absurdly low sums (I know, I know!) and I currently have c.1000 CDs, but, although I haven’t yet fully embraced it, I think that streaming is what the short and medium-term future holds for us - casual and serious listeners alike. It would be interesting to do an analysis of the cost of putting together and owning a system, including music, of roughly equal quality, based upon either vinyl, CD, or streaming. I imagine that the streaming option would be the most economic and is almost certainly the most attractive to all but a very select group of enthusiastic listeners.
Best wishes,
Brian D.
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Totally agree BrianD - you’ve done a very good analysis I think. I don’t blame you one bit for selling off the LP12 and the vinyl as the price increases couldn’t have ever been predicted.
As you say streaming is really very good indeed and better still you don’t need to give up huge amounts of space to store a collection. I think I have around 1500 LP’s and probably around 1000CD’s plus a similar number of blurays and DVD’s - it really is becoming an issue storing it all!
I totally agree though I think the vinyl bubble is going to burst at some point. Even the hipsters and youth are being priced out of the format at these levels and I know I just can’t bring myself to pay £35 for a disc which frankly I can stream virtually for free and that will sound approximately as good as my £10 000 of Gyrodec/SME in doing so!
JonathanG
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Wow!!! This seems incredible for such a recent and far from classic release!
The thing I don’t get is that people must actually be paying these prices but who are these people??? I mean the average Naim owner is pretty well heeled and I enjoy an above average income but there’s just no way on earth I could contemplate paying that…
I do know that copies of Del Amitri’s “Some other suckers parade” an early 1990’s album are now trading in the £200-£300 range if in as new condition.
In the end and probably motivated by just finishing the show I have to fess up and admit I just ordered that Daisy Jones album for £35 on Amazon - it’s a yellow vinyl edition but having loved the series and enjoyed the music I could no longer resist. So I have just fallen into the record company’s trap beautifully!!
I just hope at that price it’s well recorded/engineered in a similar style to Rumours and other mid 70’s albums in that style. I might check it out on Tidal before I break the seal!!
JonathanG
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