Theory of causation? Drinking poison that damages dendrites in the brain which changes how the neutrons communicate The human body is equipped to detoxify small amounts of ethanol, which is a toxic byproduct of yeast fermentation. When larger amounts of these toxic substances are free flowing in the blood stream, along with the toxic metabolites it causes temporary and later permanent changes to the brain and negatively impacts many organs. The fact that its highly addictive doesn’t help either.
You posted that small amounts of alcohol cause depression. You made it up.
I appreciate that I said “your theory” when I should have said, “a theory described in a peer-reviewed scientific / medical journal article.”
It’s an interesting theory and I kind of want it to be true but actually a search of Google Scholar is problematic in itself. Here’s a small taster.
http://ideophone.org/some-things-you-need-to-know-about-google-scholar/
That aside, reading some of the articles as suggested immediately suggests @Blackmorec has misunderstood numerous aspects of what is there.
First of all, as with smoking, the mechanisms of addiction remain unexplained. Low levels can be consumed socially over a long period without triggering addiction.
Secondly, almost all peer reviewed studies conclude no clear link and also that depression levels run at 10% or below at best so, until shown otherwise, actually no link at all.
Thirdly, huge leap between consumption of alcohol and alcoholism. Link between the latter and depression is as described in the previous paragraph. Link between alcohol and depression is non-existent statistically.
Fourthly, we ingest a huge variety of potentially toxic substances all our lives. We do so because we like them and in most cases because we need them. It’s a balance. Many of the things which trigger the illnesses and conditions listed are actually interactions rather than one thing.
Finally, genetics. Once again… genetics.
Here we go what? A 9 year old article on smoking, wfuch says what about alcohol?
And here!
Neither of these articles confirm any of the assertions you have made. Impressive.
The word “depression” does not occur once in that article. I don’t think you understand what “science” is.
The article does stand for the proposition that, in lab animals bred to have a genetic predisposition to alcohol addiction, structural (morphological) alterations of dendrites (and their spines) occur in key reward regions of the brain. The authors note that there is no information as to whether those morphological changes occur in animals without such a genetic predisposition.
Hi Bart,
I’ve already mentioned that the number of drinks mentioned in my posts were calculated based on data contained in research papers. The two articles I posted were in reply to another poster’s comments stating that we don’t understand the addiction mechanism of nicotine and ethanol, which we most clearly do, in quite some detail
The problem with alcohol, which i’ve seen first hand several times is that addiction starts far earlier than is recognised, with people enjoying a couple of harmless drinks EVERY evening initially finding it very difficult to stop, despite the onset of things like mild depression and anxiety, for which they seek help without linking it to their regular drinking.
What we do know is that alcohol causes changes to the brain. The rat example that you so readily ridicule is simply a way for science to condense 30 years into a short period for which the researchers can obtain research funding. A great deal of research into cancer is conducted in exactly the same manner and is a very well accepted practice.
Now I will freely admit that I’ve never read a paper that states that 2 drinks a night causes depression. What I have read is that ‘problem’ and ‘heavy’ drinking is often associated with mental illness, with several studies trying to elucidate the direction of causality i.e does alcohol cause depression or visa versa.
What I did was read several papers that state that heavy drinking and mental illness are co-morbid, with many heavy drinkers using anti-depressant medication. When I looked into what constitutes ‘heavy’ or ‘problem’ drinking I was surprised to learn that it didn’t take a lot of alcolhol imbibed nightly to fall into that category. 2 x 175ml glasses is the limit.
Many heavy drinkers suffer from depression and alcohol causes brain damage in the way neurones communicate. For me its not a major leap of faith to join the dots to say that the mental illness many heavy drinkers suffer is more than likely a manifestation of the physical damage wrought by the alcohol.
That’s not how it works. Over and out.
There was an archaeology program on recently reporting on human remains dating from before sugar and its impact in Elizabethan times. The affect on teeth after it’s introduction was horrific. The point they made was that sugar is addictive because in the body it produces serotonin, the happiness stuff. Alcohol may not cause as much tooth decay but it’s hard not to like the effect.
Porridge for breakfast should be good for serotonin levels. Slow release rather than peaks is better for the body. Just in case I’m referring to serotonin rather than alcohol!
Phil
Once again with feeling then. Everything you consume causes changes to your brain. Eating and drinking changes your teeth. So what? The mechanisms of the former are barely understood and the interactions so complex that to assert that any one thing causes damage is ludicrous as has been acknowledged numerous times by the likes of Sapolsky for example.
There is no statistically valid evidence around alcohol and mental health. That starts by their being no accepted definition of “problem drinking” and the prevalence being less than 10% anyway.
This is a thread on a completely different subject and you’re on a hiding to nothing here as with all due respect there appears to be little insight into the nuance beyond some GCSE chemistry that was not in dispute anyway.
Hi Mike,
Interesting reply…vehement denial is a very common response in discussions about alcohol. You may want to bear in mind that its not without good reason that alcohol is considered to be the most dangerous of all intoxicating drugs, both for the harm it does the user and more so, the harm it does others.
http://www.ias.org.uk/uploads/pdf/News%20stories/dnutt-lancet-011110.pdf
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Oh I’ve no doubt about the impacts of alcohol but again there is no statistically valid link between alcohol and depression. Certainly not mentioned in any of your links thus far. Where psychosis is concerned there are, again, too many other factors in play to be able to make that link.
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Now we have facts. Strange that absence of tabled facts is a problem.
Phil
Another mis-direction. The poster’s premise was that, “Relatively small amounts of alcohol taken very regularly can cause fairly serious depression.” Now we are onto “problem drinking” and depression.
Science isn’t “whatever I want to make up because to me it seems logical, and everyone else needs to disprove it.” That might be fodder for internet message boards, but it is not science.
Bart, I’ve had a lifetime of hearing stuff like red wine is good for health etc. I applaud you giving up in support of your wife.
Phil
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Hi Bart,
You’re entirely missing the point, which is that fairly small amounts of alcohol taken very regularly is problem drinking. 2 x 175ml glasses of wine every night equates to 24.5 units per week, which is considered heavy drinking.