Apple Music HiFi Tier incoming?

Streaming Audio
1221

Hi @Joamato (and @YetiZone just in case),

I didn’t do the Airplay comparison on my original Nova test day… but I’m here in Munich now with our Atom / Kudos X2 system and tried it out today.

TL;DR: I agree with you that there is a surprisingly small difference between Tidal FLAC CD quality native from Naim app to Atom and Apple Music (not CD / hi-Res any longer) streamed to Atom via Airplay 2.

I swapped around on three or four tracks (John Mayer Gravity, Steely Dan Aja, Tangerine Dream Love on a Real Train, and Delvin Lamarr Organ Trio Pull Your Pants Up.

My sense is that there was noticeably more space / air / openness with Tidal, or that the Apple Music “collapsed” a little in comparison (especially at the high end, such as isolated hi hat shots on the organ trio, or the man drums, such as the legendary Steve Gadd solos). On swapping back and forth, you could “sense” it a lot more than you could “hear” it, if you know what I mean.

That said, it was all very fun and fine to listen to… and as my wife is now a convert to Apple via watch and phone, the user experience would maybe make the larger difference than the soundstage. I’m certain that’s true for an awful lot of “my sic on, making the atmosphere” scenarios (ie a majority of time chez nous when we’re together, and togetherness, not close listening, is the focus… true for others too, I hope and expect).

I guess I should close by (perhaps redundantly?) saying that the biggest quality drop was when I tried a Topping D10 dac (say $150?) into the Nova. The least distinguishable change was swapping sources (Roon, Tidal, even Apple Music) between the native Nova facilities and the external iDevice streamer when using a good DAC (in my case, the RME). Somewhere in the middle, but definitely on the more pleasant / less noticeable half, was today’s Airplay test of Apple Music streamed via my iPhone vs the native Atom Tidal input.

Yes, there’s a difference. No, it’s not night and day, jaw dropping, or deal breaking. Not even close… but I think the better impression would become more important / worthwhile over time and particularly if things were “listening focused” rather than “music to enjoy while living”. The Atom, and for sure the Nova, do what they do really well. It’s just that the gap to other things doing what they do isn’t as profound as it once was.

I hope this makes sense and doesn’t get me kicked out of the cool kids’ club!

Thanks for the follow up, I’d like to hear what you’ve been trying and how that’s going for you too!!

3 Likes
1222

Apologies, I’ve only just fully caught up with the forum this last few days (frantic)… Thanks for taking the time to relay your findings - very interesting indeed.

I haven’t experimented further, as my UQ2 is not Airplay compatible and when I used my Apple TV3 with Airplay it was frustratingly laggy, so I’m still using my iphone SE2 connected via USB into the modest Topping E30 DAC, feeding into my Nait2 (zero lag with this arrangement). And I still find myself occasionally surprised by how good it sounds (for the money that is).

With regard to Airplay, I heard on a tech podcast that Apple are working on a lossless version of Bluetooth for their future generations of audio headphones, which if true and comes to market, could really shake things up, especially if this new super Bluetooth is capable of dealing with high res audio files. Fingers crossed!

3 Likes
1223

Quick question, and this may be a little bit left field… Is it possible to use a USB to SPDIF converter between an iPad and UnitiQute 2?

The USB signal taken straight out from the iPad, into the USB/SPDIF converter, then signal out via coaxial or optical cable, and plugged into one of the digital inputs on the 'Qute? So, is the DAC in the UQ2 able to process the high res feed from Apple Music?

1224

My guess is that should be possible from a connectivity perspective but the DAC in the UQ2 might be the limiting factor.
The specifications of the UQ2 from the Naim homepage are as follows:

  • 2 x coaxial RCA - up to 24bits/192kHz
  • 2 x optical TOSlink - up to 24bits/96kHz
  • 1 x front panel mini-TOSLINK - up to 24/96kHz
1 Like
1225

Thanks @toscana - yes I found that on the Naim UQ2 reference manual, just wanted to confirm and see if anyone else has done it, and also wondering if the UQ2 DAC was up to the job. I’ll look out for secondhand a USB/SPDIF converter and try it out.

1226

I have tested a similar setup with a Naim nDAC. I.e. iPad/iPhone into a Topping D10s (used as a USB/SPDIF converter) and then into the nDAC.
But I found this to be very inconvenient setup with a lot of additional cables and devices. Also, I found no way to control the setup remotely and had to do everything (e.g. selecting music, play/ pause commands) on the iPad directly. So purely based on the poor ergonomics I gave up very quickly.

2 Likes
1227

Yes, the cable spaghetti is my main concern really. Full remote automation is not an issue for me, but I am a touch reticent about the tangle of wires. Funnily enough, it was a similar arrangement that you experimented with that I’m potentially considering.

1 Like
1228

One additional consideration in case you are looking at the D10s is that it does not have a separate power supply but is driven by the source attached to it. In my set up that meant adding an Apple camera adapter and a sufficiently strong power plug (the 20W that came with my iPad did the job if I remember correctly).
Other peculiarities included the display of the D10s not going into standby even when no music was playing and the volume of the iPad/iPhone needs to be at 100% for the music to play loud enough.
Attached a photo of the setup

IMG_2341
IMG_23411920×1440 145 KB

3 Likes
1229

I tested using new iPad mini with usb c out to a M2TECH HiFace Two usb to coaxial converter (needed usb B to C adapter) to the Naim Atom HE coaxial input and worked just fine. But issue is then hardwired and couldn’t figure out if can control Apple Music from another device. But I did get 192k output. I’m done with Apple Music until they figure out wireless hifi solution. Back to Qobuz and roon for now.

1230

Totally off subject so apologies in advance.

I do like Bedouine, particularly the first two albums.

Like many others here I do hope that we get to a point where I can use AM natively on Naim as I may then be able to drop one of my streaming subscriptions.

1231

I see Apple have just updated their Apple Music API at WWDC’22 with MusicKit v3: Apple Developer Documentation

I wonder if it contains anything new that would allow Naim to integrate Apple Music in their streamers?

1232

I wish that it would but I won’t hold my breath, it does seem silly that both my tv and my games console can play straight from apple music servers but my hifi system can’t. Currently it seems to be only popular stuff getting it but maybe apple will surprise me.

1233

Sadly there doesn’t seem to be anything new in Airplay 2, so that won’t be getting lossless this time around.

1234

Rather than an upgrade to AirPlay 2, I was hoping for something more along the lines of native on-device Apple Music streaming integration like the current Qobuz and Tidal built-in streaming integration via the Naim app.

Oh well, one can dream I guess.

1235

I don’t really feel that this is likely to happen. Apple are fully invested in the Airplay eco-system and I don’t see them changing from that.

1236

They managed to do it with Sonos - not sure what agreement they reached with Apple to make it happen, so it’s certainly not impossible.

Either way, I guess it’s mostly wishful thinking on my part.

1 Like
1237

Amazon echo devices play from apple music too and my tv and games console have apple music so apple is definitely expanding options but not sure if naim is a big enough user base.

1 Like
1238

They likely gave in and used the Apple player you need to use or they got given a back door to use their own. The API doesn’t allow streams to go via Naims own player architecture or any for that matter it uses the native os players on iOS Mac os or android or their own player and requires applemusic app to be installed for authenticating. For webpages it has to call AMs JS player.

1 Like
1239

interesting I didn’t know that

1240

With the recent firmware update to Nova,Star,Atom etc - Saying Airplay improvements - Does this change anything in regardless to getting lossless via IOS to Naim? Or is it still AAC?

Also iOS16 - any changes here to change how AirPlay 2 works?

Thanks