Or, one can equally say “some people don’t believe in router effects, and that is their perogative, but it doesn’t make it any less real when they happen”.
As you indicate, this isn’t the place to have an in-depth discussion on this. But in the interests of balance it needs to be said, and it is an equally valid approach.
Garyi, that’s fine for you to state that it makes no difference, for you. It’s also fine for Peder to post on a thread that it does, for him. When it comes to how things sound, it’s all just opinion here, just try not to cross the line where repeatedly pressing a particular contrary opinion on a thread such as this comes across as what might be termed “thread crapping”. That way everybody gets along just fine. Thanks.
Hi 
…
I’ll turn this over to @Richard.Dane so we can have a nice thread thanks
I for one have no problem at all with your views or experiences.
You on the other hand clearly have an issue with people who don’t agree with you.
I don’t follow you, I am not offending you, I am disagreeing with your viewpoint?
It’s fine for you to disagree, as Richard has pointed out to you. But this is a thread about routers and how they may impact on sound quality. You have made your position crystal clear - you do not believe that routers can have any effect on sound.
How many times do you think you need to state this? As has been pointed out, it comes across as ‘thread crapping’. Why not just let others get on with the discussion at hand? You really don’t need to keep denigrating other people’s views or experiences.
The prerogative on belief of course applies to everything regardless of, and not changing, facts.
And on that if you go back to my posts yesterday, and also in at least one earlier in this thread alone, you will note that I am very well aware of, and drew attention to, the fact that bias works in both directions. Yes, people who “don’t believe in” something, whether network components having an effect, cables having an effect, burn-in or anything else, may genuinely not hear (as in the brain perceive) a difference when they listen even where there is one where they are listening, and not through any deliberate or conscious falsification. Just as people’s subconscious can lead them genuinely to believe they hear a difference when there isn’t one.
(Differences in audio effect through the influence of some of these topics discussed often are actually quite small/subtle despite superlatives used in so e people’s descriptions, not normally a fundamental sound difference that would be much less likely for the subconscious to influence hearing.)
Wide ranging including forensic application of scientific identification and measurement and investigation of cause and effect.
The point I am really trying to make is that it is quite possible to evaluate these things without postulating any sort of psychological effects.
You seem preoccuppied with these, perhaps becuase of your work which you mentioned in passing.
It’s odd that people only seem to find it necessary to invoke these psychological effects when discussing something a bit contentious. Presumably they don’t occur when comparing say a Rega 3 to an LP12? Why is this? Is it because everyone ‘just knows’ that an LP12 is better? And how do we know that? Could that in itself be a psychological effect of sorts?
Where does one draw the line? And why? And how?
The strict application of logic and scientific rigour can be a powerful way towards new ideas - but taken too far they can lead to rigidity and blind spots.
“Tone of voice is the way a person speaks to someone. It refers to the choice of words, volume, pitch, and speed of the message, and can affect how the listener perceives and responds to the speaker. If not done correctly, the message might be misunderstood or overlooked.”
FWIW I’ve read 1000 of written lines from Peder and never thought of any issues. I read two lines of Gary and found them aggressive, ironic in a negative way and upset. Strange how different we interpret things we read. What I personally often get tired of is what Richard refer to as “thread crapping”. A word that sums it up very well that never lead to anything good in forums or in real life.
A difficulty in trying to learn from each others experiences in this area is that results seem to be totally dependant on the internet infrastructure and the hifi components. I spoke to a friend yesterday who has worked professionelly with networking who has tested audiophile switches and power supplies in his system but found no influence on sound quality. He has also tested the same products in an audiophile friends system and found ’night and day’ improvements. I experienced a huge improvement from an audiophile switch and further improvements from putting a high quality LPS on my router.
So what is going on? It seems to me the that this is not well understood, or shared by those who do, and that we are somewhat ’fumbling in the dark’ when we try to deal with this. I am pretty convinced also that when it is better understood much cheaper solutions will be made available.
My 2 cents
Hans
Please note that I have not at any stage said that I believe the effects people report hearing are psychologically influenced, nor have I said that they are not real: I have merely pointed out that the risk of psychological influence is real, whether or not people accept that, and that unless something is done to verify then people actually do not know for certain, no matter what they believe. As for postulating things, if you read my various posts on this and other threads you will note that far from suggesting routers etc cannot influence sound quality and must be psychological, I have postulated possible physical cause of such effects if/when they do occur.
Please note the above. As your post seems to suggest you think I take logic and scientific rigour too far, I will stress that I do try to maintain an open mind and actively seek not to have blind spots, and am constantly learning - all of which were professionally essential when I was working, becoming part of my normal behaviour with everything, from hifi to hearing something on the news. And absolutely, there is nothing at all wrong with new ideas - indeed they are essential, but so is verification of facts not just belief in the ideas!
I very much agree, and highlighted this earlier in this thread!
I agree absolutely. It is very early days and we still have much to learn. I’ve no doubt at all that sooner or later we’ll see audiophile routers on the market. And why not? We already have audiophile ethernet cables and switches - so it’s hardly a giant leap to routers.
It is already happening. But some non-audiophile set ups already seem to deliver excellent results. If it can be understood why, audiophile routers and switches may not be needed.
Hans
Yes, and this is fascinating to me. We appear to be missing something more fundamental here.
I take your points. I confess that I find your position confusing. If I understand you correctly, and I’m not sure I do, you are saying that you accept that routers can affect the sound, you postulate possible physical mechanisms for this, but you also think that psychological effects that distort/influence our perceptions are possible, which may mean that none of these perceived effects are real.
I fear that we can never see eye tyo eye over this and so will have to agree to differ and to respect each others opinions.
I can only say that I feel the same as @Peder:
You have obviously developed a way of looking at things which is just alien and incomprehensible to me. I’m not saying you’re wrong - just that it’s just not me.
And that’s OK - we are all different and hopefully we can all learn at least something from other people’s viewpoints.
Hi 
…
You are both so right in your “wisdom”,.the sad thing is that we have to spend energy on stuff like this instead of the topic of the thread.
Therefore,.my suggestion as OP,is that we go back to the call that @HansW made about the topic of the thread,and things that touch around it.
"What about the initial question? Does anyone have a recommendation regarding the Router itself?
Is there any point in changing a stock router supplied by an broadband supplier to a more professional model?
Best regards
Hans"
