Brexit or Bust!


#436

How soon after 23:00 29th March 2019 will it be before the Conservative Party start to blame “The Will of the People” for all of our woes ?

My guess is, it will be well before the June election.


#437

@winkyincanada as I said many times on the old forum, it’s not a matter of what the “benefits” of leaving the EU are, for most people who voted Brexit, the fact that they were/are voting to not have things the way they currently are is the main thing.

Since the 2008 crash especially, there are a large number of people in this country who have seen their wages stagnate, their prospects diminish, and who fear that their children won’t have a life that’s better than theirs.

They were given a chance to change the status quo in 2016 and that’s what they did. No amount of sneering, bedwetting and handwringing from the likes of Dunt, or The Groaniad, the complacent bourgeoisie or the usual suspects on this and other forums can change that.

It doesn’t matter if there’s another referendum, or Art 50 is delayed, or if there’s a hard or soft Brexit, or even if we end up staying, the cat is well and truly out of the bag.

We cannot ever go back to before June 23 2016, now. As far as I am concerned that might be a good thing.

On another note, care to explain the benefits of the status quo?

No, I thought not.


#438

When will Brexiteers recognise that true democracy would be a confirmatory referendum when the reality of Brexit is finalised, given all the reasons I have afvanced before?


#439

Don - traps as obvious as that one aren’t going to snare even the dimmest of dim-witted Leave voters :wink:


#440

The insults continue unabated …


#441

Indeed


#442

Significantly better prospect of job security and prosperity for a far greater proportion of the UK population.
Moderation of the more extreme politics eg of the likes of JRM, Johnson, Gove, Redwood et.al
Better distribution of funding to those parts of the UK that need assistance


#443

I shall presume that you will be content. Unless I hear otherwise.


#444

I agree that there’s a significant degree of dissatisfaction among many people for the reasons you’ve outlined, Kevin, much of it wholly justified. What I find it harder to understand is why so many people seem to equate the dissatisfaction with stagnating wages etc with the UK’s membership of the EU. Leaving the EU will not improve their wages or the prospects for their children. If they believe that, they’ve been misled. If they wanted to register a vote of protest against the status quo, May’s snap election was an opportunity to register it. But, while Corbyn’s Labour - the first genuinely new manifesto since Michael Foot - did better than many predicted, the Conservatives got back in. There’s more going on here than people being fed up with austerity.


#445

Adding to Don’s list:

Freedom to live and work in the EU.
Common market.
Common laws making it easy for businesses in particular.
Good consumer protection law (Britain had a very good background in this area before the EU, and indeed much of EU consumer protection law had its basis on UK origins, but simce then EU has been a force for consistency, greater resources for research (e.g. food safety), and so large a mass that much of the outside world has learnt to align, so far, far fewer failures detected now with products imported from outside the EU).
Good environmental protection law.

i think there are other things about which I am less clear, such as to do with GPS.

And from all the above a host of minor things in themselves, but which add up, such as no phone roaming charges in EU, guaranteed compensation for delayed flights, etc - yes, the UK could legislate to bring in similar benefits, but would it, really?


#446

It’s good to hear from non UK press

Al-Jazeera also have similar conclusions.

Polarising politics to left or right wing views is not the issue- it’s common sense that the article in WSJ is referring to.


#447

Hi Kev.
… but isn’t this the way most public opinion is being formed?
However allow me to state a fact after having had my weekly chat with my Danish Uni friend today,
who btw is very sad to see UK leaving the EU for more than financial reasons.
He happens to run a Dental Surgery in Denmark with 13 employees. EU has just introduced a new decree which holds, that every employee now has a right to claim 5 working days/ year as some relation needs their care ( this could even boil down to say an elderly neighbour), this fully paid for by their employers. Add to this a 5 week holiday per year.
I appreciate that the idea of this could be alluring for some employees ( If not all), however an EU membership country just lost another 1/52 of its GDP.
Weirdly I haven’t seen any mentioning of this in the press. ATB Peter


#448

Be that as it may, the choice to leave will likely make everything that they were dissatisfied with simply worse. Unemployment, wage stagnation, poor prospects and greater concentration of wealth - all these are likely to get worse. It doesn’t seem a very rational approach.


#449

Yep. Free movement of people, greater economic prospects for the UK, less frictional cost associated with managing trade and borders.


#450

What do you mean by this?


#451

Hi Mike. You are absolutely spot on, people simply voted with their heart. ATB Peter


#452

It seems to me the dissatisfaction was with the way the Conservative party have gone about their businesses, too much austerity for too long a period. I suspect people just voted for “different.” Shame they couldn’t have just voted labour - we would have had a big swing to the left and some investment into real people, it would of either worked or paved the way for a centrist to come in.

Instead we got Brexit which has brought the worst out in our society and the looming reality that we will all be worse off. No doubt middle England could ride it out but for the more vulnerable in our society will find things harder going.

We keep using the same thinking to solve our problems that caused them in the first place…

In my mind the case for remaining is clear and the case for leaving is not but willing to be educated.


#453

And the heart, certainly in a proportion of cases (but the magnitude of that proportion unknown), without ever wanting to leave, voted leave purely wanting to reduce the magnitude of the anticipated large majority “remain” result to send a message to Cameron to shake his overconfidence and cockiness. It backfired horibly, but is part of the reason why the original result is unsafe as a basis for such a major change to the country.


#454

I’d say that is a factoid, an urban myth. As is the suggestion that people where not happy with the status quo and wanted a change.

They where put forward as a theory as to why leave won, they’ve been repeared over the years and now accepted as fact by some people.

More people voted leave because they are not very clever, than the reasons given above.


#455

That some people voted not wanting to leave but to make a point is a fact. i know three people who are in that category, one my own better half. And IIRC at least one person said the same of themselves on one of the Brexit threads on the old forum.