Brexit or Bust!


#518

@Adam.Meredith As someone who did the Classics and who studied art history, I can certainly appreciate what Greece has given the world, and Europe in particular - Europe’s first great “writer” (Homer), its first great poetry (Illiad/Odyssey), its first drama (the three great tragedians, Euripides, Sophocles and Aeschylus), the glories of those anymous red figure vase painters, as well as the sculptors Myron, Lysippos, Praxilites or the architect Phideas. You could chuck in all those philosphers and comedic writers as well. Oh, and those astronomers, mathematicians, scientists…

Culturally and scientifically, Europe owes the Greeks (from centuries ago) an incalculable debt. There’s also the small matter of the democracy the Greeks bequeathed the continent (indeed the world) - and while Athenian democracy is hardly what we today would call a “proper democracy” it is an important principle which has served the continent pretty well in the years since Solon.

And you might sneer at the Greek city states’ victory over Xerxes’ vastly superior Persian forces at Thermopylae (and the simultaneous naval battle at Artemisium) but Europe as we know not might not exist had that victory not been won.

Agincourt was a very different kind of battle in a very different kind of war - and Henry V’s victory, while important for the English people’s sense of themselves, was not a matter of national survival as Thermopylae was.

Personally I value Socrates and Homer over Tusk, Juncker and Selmayr, but each to their own I suppose. Perhaps you’re just a philistine, or trying to be funny, who knows?

Your snarkiness has always been wearying, now it is just tiresome and does you no credit.


#519

As to those leave voters offended by M. Tusk I would refer them to the words of Dire Straits in that " When you point your finger when your plan falls through, there’s three more fingers pointing back at you".

Personally, as a remainer, I am offended too, but not sufficiently to take my toys away!


#520

A SECOND referendum is not a people’s vote, it’s a loser’s re-run.


#521

Perhaps Tusk said what he did because he’s rattled. Can’t really blame him I suppose, as the whole continent, as well as the UK, is on the edge of an abyss; but his language was undiplomatic and his intervention crass.

Personally, I wasn’t offended - all he’s done is to weaken the EU case a little.


#522

You should read Yannis Veroufakis book. He was finance minister in Greece for a while at that time. His has detailed descriptions on negotiating with the Eurogroup and how they send him all-over in the bureaucracy.

The Eurogroup wanted Greece to accept big loans (the vaults in the german banks was full of money they needed to place in loans). Veroufakis & Co. didnt want more loans they were never going to be able to pay back. He wanted the Eurogroup to treat Greece like Wall Street treats any bankrupt company. They even had a referendum in Greece that agreed with him despite empty ATM machines in the streets. The day after the referendum the Greece government caved in to the Eurogroup and accepted the loans and Veroufakis resigned.

Veroufakis now run the Diem25 EU-wide organisation to democratize the EU. And especially the Eurogroup.


#523

You’re quite right jan. I recall some wags saying at the time, half seriously, it should be Germany that leaves the euro-currency; not Greece


#524

@jan all that came across in the BBC programme on Monday night. Not sure if you can watch BBC programmes where you are but the two episodes so far have been very good.

Try this link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0c1rjj7

The third programme, next week, will deal with the migration crisis.


#525

OOps ! Sorry.

If there’s a CONFIRMATORY referendum (do we leave on the negotiated terms or do we Remain) and we decide to Remain, I’d love to be a fly on the wall when Tusk and more so Junckers are drafting the first versions of their “welcome back” speeches.

I happen to consider it’s a PEOPLE’s democracy and now that our representatives and our currently elected leaders have done their best, they should bring their proposals back to US to decide what we prefer.

I appreciate that some people have other views.


#526

Personally I value Socrates and Homer over Tusk, Juncker and Selmayr, but each to their own I suppose. Perhaps you’re just a philistine, or trying to be funny, who knows?

He was one-hell-of-a player. Brazil could do with him now. :wink:
[the ‘pleb’ in me showing there, I know]


#527

@TheKevster - Kevin, I very much agree with your assessment of the BBC’s series so far, and the way Greece was treated. What the programme did remind me of is the EU’s capacity to take seemingly intractable negotiating positions right to the wire before a deal is struck. The rhetoric currently coming out of Brussels about its unwillingness to revisit the Irish Backstop has all the same hallmarks seen in that episode of the Greece Euro crisis. TM’s strategy might be not be as hopeless as it appears, though I still think nothing she comes back with with satisfy the ERG gang.
Mike


#528

Indeed Mike. He was a doctor as well, and a bit of a leftie (always good in my book). Great footballer.

Tusk, Selmayr and Juncker on the other hand remind me of the terrible West German team (especially goalkeeper Toni Schumacher), of 1982 WC finals infamy. Remember what they did to Battiston’s teeth? Or the pact with Austria? Their hubristic boasts about putting eight past Algeria (the sour Krauts lost 2-1)?

Still, despite being bullies and cheats to a man they were defeated by the Italians in the Final.


#529

I agree Mike, but fortunately these loons look a diminshed force these days - they have consistently overr-reached themselves in recent months and I feel their support (limited in the first place, but overestimated by just about everybody) is ebbing away. May needs to hold her nerve and give no quarter to Mogg and his motley crew of ideologues and freaks.


#530

Yeah. I enjoyed that tournament. Re Socrates, I also thought he was dead cool.


#531

Rossi was everyone’s hero that summer.


#532

Especially with the ladies…


#533

@Don - There was an interesting piece in “The Remoaners’ Bible”, the FT, this morning.

I offer it without comment:

https://www.ft.com/content/a49a8ae4-2a05-11e9-a5ab-ff8ef2b976c7


#534

A couple of article for leavers -

And an article from the FT (who openly state their preference for ‘remaining’’ - https://www.ft.com/content/dddd1d26-295b-11e9-a5ab-ff8ef2b976c7


#535

These are certainly interesting times. Remainers recommending articles from The Express and the Torygraph


#536

Looks like I would need to subscribe to read.


#537

@Don - Good journalism, the kind that the Pink 'Un frequently gives us, is well worth paying for.

The gist is that despite the various disasters to befall TM and her Govt these past few days - the fiasco over the PM’s deal, the threats from Airbus and Nissan, the scary details over no-deal planning - there is little sign that the public is shifting decisively towards Remain. The current farcical impasse has only hardened positions, with seemingly little enthusiasm among both MPs and the public either for May’s deal or for a second ref. The opposition (and the unions) are split meaning that they are for the moment unable to influence events.

The FT argues - quite correctly, in my view - that for a second vote to happen, there needs to be a full-blown crisis. Which of course could well happen.