Brexit or Bust!


#538

Thank you Kevin.
Sorry not to be a newspaper aficionado!
Yes, I can’t see much prospect of TM developing a “Deal” that will garner support in Parliament any time soon.
That could leave a choice between No Deal v Delay/Withdraw Art50.
Difficult to predict the next few weeks.


#539

The first and third points you make are eminently reasonable, @Don, but not really provable either way - we’ll have to revisit those in a few years’ time.

The second is a matter of opinion. I fully agree that the Brexit Ultras’ policies would need to be moderated (no, countered vigorously), but that is a matter for Parliament and the public (via the ballot box). As I said above, in my point about the EU’s treatment of the Greeks, the European Union bureacracy and its banker friends are not above a bit of asset stripping and fanatical privatisation themselves. The sainted EU is as bad as the ERG in my book.


#540

arrogance

/ˈarəɡ(ə)ns/

noun

noun: arrogance

  1. the quality of being arrogant.

“the arrogance of this man is astounding”

synonyms: haughtiness, conceit, hubris, self-importance, egotism, sense of superiority; More

pomposity, high-handedness, swagger, boasting, bumptiousness, bluster, condescension, disdain, contempt, imperiousness;

pride, vanity, immodesty;

loftiness, lordliness, snobbishness, snobbery, superciliousness, smugness;

pretension, pretentiousness, affectation;

scorn, mocking, sneering, scoffing;

presumption, insolence;

informal uppitiness, big-headedness

“to dismiss all the academic work on the subject displays breathtaking arrogance”

antonyms: humility, modesty

It has so far been an interesting read this thread. In so many ways it is summing up the sentiment between the people, who already in my book rightfully feel, that a decision was made back in 2016 and on the other side the remainers. There is a strong sense of the above word ARROGANCE both, when it comes to the discussion between ourselves here and also how the EU leadership is arrogantly and disrespectfully treating us topped by Tusk’s speech earlier today.
We have had statements varying from:
Leavers argumentation for leaving is pathetic, not being clever ( read unintelligent) etc.
We have also had complete mickey taking out of people here, who have quoted historical speeches and events ( I am btw aware that we are not at war with Germany Debs), but I personally find it valuable to ‘ remember’, as sadly history tends to repeat itself and little do we learn. I do feel, that Tusk’s remarks earlier today topped up with his subsequent laugh at the UK with one of his equally endearing colleagues should come as a no surprise.
Finger pointing at individual politicians like TM and finger pointing/ personal attacks at eachother here is very unhelpful for, what could be a sound discussion. This thankfully has been aided by individuals, who are more in the thick of it and very knowledgable of the technicalities of the ins and outs. This still however doesn’t make their view or belief more righteous than the rest of us.
No, Adam I haven’t got a degree in ancient Greek history, however having watched clearly too many speeches in the EU Parliament as of lately, I now just like MikeB have realised just how staggering the display of ARROGANCE is at play towards this country as such and equally our representatives in the negotiations leading to this moment in time.
To think that the main players in Europe for one moment care about our role, is I am afraid somewhat naive from what I have seen.
To the people who really do believe, that this is only happening to us, because we are a spoiled little numpty lot, all I can say is, that they should have joined our negotiators at the crunch table in Bruxelles to experience, how little goodwill we actually have as a nation in Europe.
Another interesting observation ( I wouldn’t of course dream of stating any facts here) is that the UK has always been the naughty boy in the class, AND WHY IS THAT…?
This is my last post on this thread as per my intro. I do no longer want to be rubbished by sneary remarks for having a different view to the Remainer group ( this seemingly here outnumbering the leavers) anymore or outright watching other people being taken the piss out of.
I humbly bow down LEAVING… Peter


#541

@Innocent_Bystander You make some valid points, but:

Freedom to work and live in the EU will not end post-Brexit (should it happen), it might be more difficult, there might be a bit more paperwork, but that’s never stopped Brits living and working elsewhere in the world, has it?

The “common laws” you cite do indeed make doing business easier in many respects, but not all these laws work for all businesses. And it works both ways: after Brexit the UK will remain an important trade partner for many EU member countries, and they will not want their trade to the UK to be made more difficult by either the UK Gov or Brussels.

On food safety/consumer protection, the UK has a better record on this than most EU countries. UK consumers care about what they put in their mouths more than most, and are surprisingly knowledgeable about food. The UK has also, given that it has an industrialised food industry, has been at the forefront of food trends such as good animal husbandry, organic, free-range fairtrade, etc. Today’s announcement by the CMA to tackle hotel booking firms not being transparent over their pricing shows that we are still robust in dealing with consumer protection. I also suspect that in order to get Labour onside for any deal she makes, May will have to make big concessions over future workers’ rights and consumer protection.

On environmental protection… well, just look at pubic opposition to GM foods and fracking. Given the English (especially, but aldo elsewhere in the UK) attachment to their landscape, environmental rape and pillage is unlikely to happen. This is not Trump’s America.

On your point about roaming charges and flight compensation, once such measures are put in place, they are very difficult to reverse. Would the British public accept such measures? No they would not! On these measures, and our existing standards on food and the like, reversing them would be very expensive both to the public purse and to suppliers/manufacturers. There is very little motive for reversing our eisting laws, whether they were made by EU or UK.

GPS I know nothing about, so I have nothing to say there.


#542

But will it? Yours is a valid point of view, Winky, but not provable either way, at least not yet. For many people, a leap into the unknown is preferable to the status quo. It may not be rational, but I suspect you’ve never been in the (desperate) position of those who think this way.


#543

Kevin, usually, when we observe desperate people, about to jump into the abbis, we try to persuade them otherwise.


#544

The EU’s “freedom of movement” is nothing to do with freedom as most understand it.

It is not some happy utopian move to give everyone the freedom to come and go as they please, but is all about capital being able to select cheap(er) labour from elsewhere.

It is stacked against the richer countries (UK, Germany, Scandinavia, Holland, and France to a degree) because the movement of labour is almost entirely one way (eg, few go from the UK to work in Bulgaria, Rumania or Poland) and much of it is unskilled, thus disadvantaging the domestic unskilled workforce. It results in the immiseration of the working man.

For far too long, capital in this country has relied on importing labour rather than investing in its workforce, training them, giving them prospects and paying them fairly. This must change.

Before anyone accuses me of racism, I am a big fan of immigration - managed immigration brings new skills, culture and ideas to a country. This has been the case here in the UK over the centuries, and has helped make London (my home) the world’s pre-eminent global city.

But it has to be managed so that it is not disruptive. And freedom of movement has to be balanced by the needs and concerns of the people already there, otherwise it will be seen as an invasion - and such feelings of resentment are a gift to the far Right.


#545

Not provable, but I’ll go with consensus forecasts of those who seriously study such things.


#546

I agree @Don, but calling them thickos, racist, deluded, xenophobes, Little Englanders, Daily Mail readers, etc is perhaps not the best way to do it. :sunglasses:


#547

What I mean @winkyincanada is that the EU’s working methods have had a light shone on them, and many don’t like what they see - I refer you to my post above about the forced asset-stripping of Greece in 2012 as an example. There’s also the arrogance, sophistry and intransigence of the EU bureacracy and its fellow travellers, which in my view exceeds the delusion, incompetence and arrogance of many hardcore Brexiters.

And (to use another metaphor), the genie is out of the bottle and can’t be put back now. Even if we remain, or get the softest of Brexits, we cannot go back to things as they were before the 2016 referendum.

Since I’ve been talking about the ancient Greeks a lot this evening, allow me to quote the “tearful philosopher” Heraclitus of Ephesus’s most famous saying:

“πάντα χωρεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει” καὶ “δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης”

My Greek is very rusty, but it roughly translates as: “No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it’s not the same river and he’s not the same man.”

In other words, we can try to return to the past but things will never be the same because the world has moved on and so have we. Our relationship with the EU cannot be repaired, as since 2016 we as a country have changed, and so has the EU.


#548

Similarly, the Brexit debate has shone a light on the attitudes and beliefs of many UK citizens. It’s not pretty.


#549

Well, presumably not the immiseration of the working man from Poland who has found economic opportunity in the UK.


#550

Wanting to remain has nothing whatsoever to do with any particular political persuasion, or newspaper preference!


#551

Indeed. But that’s no consolation to the UK working man, is it? It’s not much of an argument.

If our putative Pole starts up a business here in the UK and pays tax (as for example, the tens of thousands of Jews who came here in the early 1900s, or the Kenyan Asians who arrived in the 1970s did), that is a good thing. If he spends and contributes to the UK econmy, that too is good. But if he scrimps and regularly sends money home and goes back to Poland after a couple of years, that’s not so helpful to Blighty - although it is of course great for our Polish friend.

Quite naturally, people in UK care about English/Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish first and foremost . I’m sure the Poles - and indeed Canadians - feel the same way. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, it’s just human nature.


#552

Absolutely. Wanting to leave has little to do with one’s political allegiance or newspaper of choice either!

I voted out but I’m on the libertarian Left and read The Times, FT and Mirror and occasionally The Graun and they’re all pro-remain (the Mirror, admittedly, is rather cautious, as a good deal of its working class readership voted to leave).

I made the point because those two papers are probably the mosrt rabidly pro-Brexit rags out there.


#553

It certainly has. There are many racist,bigoted, unthinking and xenophobic leave voters, but millions who aren’t, who made their decision for the best of reasons.

Similarly, there are many decent, open-minded remainers, but there are also many snobbish, hypocritical and self-loathing remain voters who desperately want the UK to fail because 17 million people, who they now detest, had the temerity to vote a different way from them.

I hope that was the point you were trying to make…


#554

Remainers certainly don’t want the UK to fail, that’s one big reason why they want to remain in the EU.
Also, 17.4 million Leave voters are a minority [ albeit a big minority ] when you consider the population of the UK. 17.4 million is no where near enough to represent a will of the people. This is why so many Remainers are justifiably concerned, democracy has been acutely corrupted to suit the missions of a very right wing Tory political agenda, which will leave most UK people a lot worse off. Hence - no Peoples Vote, no ‘honest’ re-vote just to confirm what the people really want.
All we get is a meaningful vote which is certainly full of meanness, and mean-while we are powerless to influence this one way or other.
You have to appreciate how many UK people are now excluded, ignored, or made irrelevant in this hideous process to leave the EU which can only result in costing each and everyone of us very dearly.

Bottom line is; if we in the UK really must do a Brexit, do it with the blessing of ‘honest’ democracy only after a confirmation referendum win for Leave.


#555

But there was BSE, wasn’t it?

Thatcher deemed laws regarding food safety unnecessary, British food industry tried to save money by not heating meat enough and Britain went mad as a cow when the EU had to ban British Beef.


#556

Well said!


#557

@JochenF Indeed. But that was 20 years ago. Our food laws are much stricter now. What’s your point?

Your post is also factually incorrect. BSE was also a global (Including Europe) problem. BSE is caused by feeding cows animal protein (meat, offal and bone meal), it is nothing to do with insufficiently heating meat.

vCJD is the human disease caused by eating infected meat, especially offal. Again, it is a global, not just UK problem (although there were more cases in the UK than anywhere else), and there were cases in Japan, Ireland, Canada and the US.