Brexit or Bust!

#558

@Debs - 72.2% of those eligible to vote did so (only one vote in recent times surpassed that turnout, the 1992 GE with 72.3%). The 27.8% who didn’t, or couldn’t be bothered, to vote can hardly complain if things didn’t turn out the way they wanted - assuming that is, they would have all voted to stay, which is doubtful.

By common consent (even some remainers concede this, as do senior EU figures, as quoted in last week’s BBC doc), Remain ran a lousy and deeply negative campaign that failed to convince enough people to vote for them, or at least motivate them to get to the polling stations.

#559

This seems “quite natural” to you, presumably. But I don’t weight the well-being of people who live near me (or who are “like me”) any higher than I do the well-being of people elsewhere (or who are “unlike me”). You possibly don’t believe me, and even if you did, you would think my view ridiculous. And that’s why we’ll never agree on this.

#560

Well, quite obviously, they can.

#561

I found your claim that UK consumers cared more about food than most a bit over the top. Certainly not more than the rest of the EU.

#562

I’m still waiting to hear these reasons. Seriously.

#563

I know - they’ve been doing it for two and a half years. They don’t get much sympathy from most folk, though - unless that nasty old Farage and Paul Dacre (editor of the Daily Mail) imprisoned them in their homes on polling day.

My suspicion is that many people didn’t vote because they blithely assumed- like Cameron’s government and much of the “establishment” - Remain would win.

#564

Well you’ll have to ask 17 million people to find that out. I can’t speak for them. Perhaps many thought their lives would get better. Perhaps some wanted to stop immigration. I suspect that there are as many reasons as there are voters… Unless you are defaulting to the position of assuming that everyone who voted leave was a racist scumbag.

#565

@JochenF - Where’s your evidence for this assertion? Or is it just prejudice or supposition on your part?

#566

I am fairly sure people voted to leave because they thought their lives would get better. Narrow self-interest is depressingly common. But the anticipated source of that improvement in their lives? That’s what I’m interested to hear about. In what ways did they think their lives would be better? What was the evidence that led them to be expecting those outcomes? Do they still expect those outcomes? Honestly, I’d be happy to even hear some guesses.

#567

So you are agreeing with a second referendum rather rely on your opinion ? Or as you say rely on a ‘lousy remain campaign’

#568

Clearly the 17m were also not motivated to vote ‘leave’ either, so why not give everyone a fresh vote? Wouldn’t that be liberal?

#569

So your point is that you are not extreme ?

#570

Kevin,
I have never used any of those words.

Cheers, Don

#571

Terrific book - very revealing of how Germany quite cynically took advantage of Greek weakness. With friends like that, who needs the EU?!

#572

Your second reply explains why Winki’s position in the first reply quoted is the correct analysis and why although not provable to 100% certainty, it is, on the balance of probability of very high likelihood.

Statistics collected consistently show that on average European migrants to Britain made a significant positive contribution to our economy rather than detracting from it. Specifically, that the taxes they payed and the effect of the increase in our GDP earned by then are considerably greater than the amount then ‘sent home’ - they made a net contribution to provision of our welfare state and to the benefits paid to those very UK residents you define as being in the “(desperate) position of those who think this way”. Indeed, as you also point out, in many cases the though patterns of these people whilst voting to leave the EU were not rational, however in my experience talking to leavers, many more voted without having put sufficient effort into understanding the issues involved and were simply misled by the hyperbole and groundless promises of the Brexit campaigns.

#573

Yes I totally agree, indeed we should have a confirmatory referendum to see what they think now that the true facts are becoming clear.

#575

One of the great things about our brand of democracy is that there is no need whatsoever to explain or justify how one exercises one’s vote. Despite my preference to remain, I can see no justification for any second referendum or ‘people"s vote’. There’s certainly a lot to be learned for the future, should we ever hold any more referenda, but for now we need to be concentrating on making the best of the situation into which we’ve been propelled by our incompetent, unprincipled politicians. I have an uneasy feeling that we are in a lose-lose predicament, but I’m sure it won’t be the end of life as we know it. The sun will continue to rise and set, things will eventually improve, and we need to remember that things could be much worse (Syria, Brazil, Venezuela etc…).

#576

Having a confirmatory referendum bears no relationship to the confidentiality of anyone’s original vote, but has everything to do with democracy: Knowing if people really want to go through with the final reality of Brexit once they know what that is, getting on for 3 years from the original referendum (more than halfway through the maximum time between general elections, and more than the time between some).and bearing in mind all the lack of, bad, and downright misleading info influencing people at the time, quite apart from those known to have voted contrary to what they actually wanted.

In my view you are wrong and at this time we - anyone wanting not to go through with what it looks like Brexit may be - need to be still doing whatever can be done to influence politicians to build in a referendum as the democratic final check: then if the majority of people really want to go through with it move into making the best of the situation - if they don’t as may be the case, there will be no need.

#577

I suspect the chances of parliament ever again enrusting the people with a referendum, once Brexit is resolved, are virtually nil

#579

Referendum on a referendum - sorry IB, we will definitely have to agree to differ on this one, notwithstanding I am a Remainer! The most important thing is to be able to disagree without falling out. The amount of vitriol dripped over a similar thread on the previous forum disgusted me, and this one has only just managed to avoid descending into a slanging match on occasions.