Brexit or Bust!


#580

I’m a promoter of democracy. I voted to Remain. Now that the consequences of Brexit are clearer (by no means chrystal clear) I consider it would be democratic to hold a referendum based on accepting May’s Deal v Remaining within the EU. Not to hold such a referendum would be wholly un-democratic.

Assuming we voted to Remain, I would have no problem with a further referendum in say 10 years time based on a reconsidered proposal to Leave. This time the politicians would have to have a proposal well laid out and a clear indication that is was acceptable to the EU as well, unless the proposal was clearly “A No-Deal Brexit”


#581

So how is it acceptable to have a general election only 3, 2 or even 1 year after the previous one. The people chose the party by voting in the Ms of P. If circumstances changing can justify a new election, the reality of circumstances of Brexit changing - lack of £350M per week for NHS being one prominent one - surely can justify a fresh referendum (which actually I’ve never advocated, only ever wanting a confirmstory one.


#582


#583

Well, a picture is worth a thousand words.

But it doesn’t mean it’s a picture of reality.

Nonetheless, it did make me smile !


#584

Indeed Don. Sometimes our best course of action, from both camps, is maybe an attempt at a little sense of ‘humour’ :joy:


#585

thanks, I’ll look those bbc programs up.

/jan


#586

Your whole post has summarised this thread very accurately. If anybody else here has worked at Berlaymont then I’m sure they’ll recognise the points you make and endorse your views.

I do not think anything I write will change anybody’s view and nothing I’ve read from those who wanted the status quo have done anything to change my mind. In fact, quite the contrary, it’s made the reasons to support TM much clearer.

So all we are saying is give Britain a chance - let’s see how it goes.
Same goes for Sweden, Denmark or any country wishing to leave the EU.


#587

Superb - says it all in one cartoon


#588

God I’ve just spent an hour reading all of these depressing posts, England what have you done to yourself. As an outsider my opinion is of no concern and irrelevant however as an Aussie that’s always (begrudgingly) had a soft spot for our English friends it hurts to see you guys seemingly pull yourselves apart.

Don’t let these politicians (both sides) divide you, it’s what they want.

A strong Great Britain can overcome any obstacle.

However I am hoping there’s an upside to all of this calamity, maybe the distraction will effect the English cricket side this coming summer (yours). Just a thought.


#589

I know @Don, but you’re one of the good guys.


#590

Referendums often leads to a dip in the voters trust in the representative system. Use with care.

Another problem is they tend to become proxies for other questions that voters have higher on their list. To be honest - how many thought the EU was such a hot worry even in the UK? I dont think I have ever seen a poll in the EU27 where it makes the top ten.

I wouldnt be surprised if Brexit was considered a worse problem than the EU if anyone dared to poll it :slight_smile:


#591

Or, as in this case, a dip in parliaments trust in the people.


#592

Jan… I think the people’s trust in their parliamentarians was already quite low before the referendum, at the time of the referendum and, certainly, since the referendum. I certainly wouldnt argue that there was any great clamour for a referendum in the first place. Nevertheless David Cameron chose to go down that path and parliament voted it, thereby dropping themselves into the hole in which they now find themselves. They may yet use another referendum as an expedient for getting themselves out of that hole. Thereafter, and this comes back to my original point, I think it very unlikely they will ever make that mistake again.


#593

Quite possibly - a united Ireland, although I’m not so naive as to think that would be easy - however desirable.


#594

I think you should keep your opinions on UK citizens to yourself.


#595

Your desire for another referendum has got nothing to do with “democracy” whatsoever - so why not stop banging that drum?

You want another referendum because you don’t like the result of the last one and, in the time honoured EU tradition, you want another vote simply to overturn the outcome of the ptrevious vote. Having lost, you (et al) want another bite of the cherry - I get that - but have the grace to stop trying to kid us that it’s all about democracy when democracy has already been adequately and appropriately served.


#596

I guess it must get quite giddying up there on that high, high horse. I wish I were as virtuous as you.

Seriously though, that’s not what I said, and I suspect you know it, as your deliberate use of a selective quote proves.


#597

You wish nothing of the sort. You don’t even believe that I’m virtuous, only that I think I am.

Oh, and it is exactly what you said. To be fair, you did extend the sentiment to include people of other countries and I cropped that bit. For what it’s worth, I agree with you. It is “quite natural” (or at least almost universally common) to care more about people who are like us, or who are near us. That’s what got us into this mess.


#598

Patently NOT, for al, the reasone I have advanced. I will not stop “banging that drum” until either there is a confirmatory referendum, or Brexit has happened or been cancelled.

The rest of your rant is not worth a response.


#599

A great sense of humour.