Brexit or Bust!


#600

What a ridiculous argument. We are two years down the line from the referendum with a catastrophic ‘No deal’ exit looming (something by the way that many of the most vociferous Brexiteers claimed would never happen and that raising the prospect was simply scaremongering), much more information about the likely impacts (or benefits if you like) of Brexit, no prospect of hundreds of thousand of migrants from Turkey invading the UK and taking our jobs and a whole 2 year’s worth of new young voters on the electoral role.

How on earth can anyone possibly think that holding a second referendum on Brexit would be anything other than democratic? How on earth can it be considered by anyone to be undemocratic?

The answer of course is that no one (or at least very nearly no one) truly believes that a second vote would be undemocratic. Claiming that a second referendum is undemocratic and the ‘faux righteousness’ that is displayed by those who claim so is disturbing. In light of where we are now and how we got here this position simply portrays itself as a nice and convenient tactic to attempt to skirt around the recognition that a second referendum would in all probability result in a different result - if you really believe that a 2nd vote would go the same way as the first, then what better than to remove some of the divisiveness that now afflicts our politics and our country than to have that second referendum.

If May leads us out of the EU on a ‘no deal’ then she will never be forgiven. Despite at one time having admired Jeremy Corby and the way in which he engaged with large numbers of youngsters with his radical policies, I now feel completely let down by his performance over the duration of the Brexit debacle.

What a sorry state our country is in!


#601

Note to Remainers;

It’s a completely pointless exercise debating the foibles of Brexit to orthodox Brexiteers.
It has become ingrained in their conscious as deep as any religion, and they have been chartered on the holy crusade of sanctus sovereign righteousness. Any opposing thought that differers from their gospel is highly offensive to their belief. They are committed to follow out the divine will of their chosen deity and would even gladly burn down their own homes complete with wife and kids if it meant satisfying their Great God of Brexit :angel:


#602

It’s got everything to do with democracy. If, as seems highly likely, a second referendum will prompt those who were originally decieved by the illegal, lying Brexit campaign to change their minds, the young people who have since come of age support remain (as the majority of them did last time), and those who chose not to vote because they thought remain would be a foregone conclusion (and I’m sure we all know some of those) vote remain also.

So the remain side win. Surely that’s a more democratic decision? And were the extremely unlikely happen and brexit won again, at least it would be a referendum on a fairer basis, which I for one would be grudgingly accepting of.


#603

When I started the “Sleepwalking” thread about 3 years ago, I had hoped to find reasoned and polite discussion concerning the benefits/drawback both of Remaining and Leaving. At the time, it seemed to me that a monumentous decision lay ahead and the Nation was unaware and unprepared. I have no idea whether that thread influenced anyone’s voting decision. But I certainly consider sleepwalking was a good approximation to where many of us were !

Post the referendum AND the appointment of TM as PM, I doubt whether anybody taking part in the various “Brexit” threads on this forum has been persuaded to change their position. And I wouldn’t have expected it either.

However, I personally have learned quite a bit about how others on both side of the discussion (ok argument) feel about the potential changes ahead and what they think about our politicians and those handling the various negotiations.

I have no doubt it has also acted as a relief valve to vexed and frustrated anger on both sides, but it has also shown that most of us have retained a (weak ?) sense of humour which gives me hope that Post 29th March, whatever the outcome, the Nation will survive.

So, I hope the thread doesn’t descend into a personal abuse/slanging match. It’s inevitable that points of view will be repeated (ad nausium). I doubt if any of us here can influence the outcome one little bit, but we can continue to guess what happens next and share our thoughts about what’s past, present and future in a robust but not unpleasant way…

…or am I just an optimist ?


#604

There’s no doubt in my mind that many Remainers argue for another referendum because they hope it would reverse the result of 2016, and many Brexiteers argue against a second referendum because they secured the result they wanted in 2016 and don’t want to risk that unravelling. Both groups tend to camouflage their arguments. Unfortunately accusations of such camouflage blight the arguments of other folk holding more moderate views, both Remainers and Leavers, who I think worry that the way the UK might exit the EU is not what people voted for eg a pretty soft Brexit (TM’s proposed deal) or a no-deal Brexit. I think their arguments about going back to the people again are well-intentioned and have democratic underpinnings.

That said, while I have the occupied the ‘Brexit is a daft idea so another referendum might be the chance to stop it’ camp, over time my views on the merits of a second referendum have been moving. I still think the ‘democracy’ argument carries weight, given the lies told in 2016 and how so much more information of the implications have become apparent… but…the divisiveness of the topic hasn’t been settled in the light of the referendum result. It has got worse and worse. I’m increasingly worried that should a second referendum take place there will forces like Farage and co who will fan the flames of that divisiveness and things will get very much worse. Ultimately we in the UK need to pull together, whether we are in or out of the EU, and the sooner that healing process begins the better.


#605

Wouldn’t that be appeasing the extreme right such as Farage and UKIP rather than doing what you think is best?

If you want to make a difference you can write to your MP at:


#606

I can see that argument, @halloweenman. I’d like to cancel the whole Brexit thing but we are where we are. I think the chances of Brexit now being cancelled are getting smaller and smaller, given both major parties want Brexit (well, in Labour’s case, that’s more about a failure of leadership by Corbyn).
As to Farage and his ilk, I find it interesting that he is now encouraging the idea of a second referendum because he fears that the Brexit he has in mind is being ‘stolen’ by the exit deal negotiated by TM with the EU. So I console myself with the thought that the soft Brexit we are heading for, though worse than staying a full EU member, must be absolutely hated by Farage, his backers and the ERG gang. All that effort on their part, the money spent, the questionable legality of their campaign, the lies etc etc and it looks like the UK is still going to be under a good deal of EU influence if not control. He must be apoplectic.


#607

Fair point about writing to MPs demanding a second referendum (or People’s Vote when it is wearing its camouflage). My MP is Lib Dem who is already campaigning for one.


#608

I’m not sure there is a majority in Parliament for any type of Brexit, thankfully. The worry is that a few Labour MPs might be bribed and go with TM’s deal together with the Tories who will change their mind about the backstop and take Brexit whatever the cost as they fear no Brexit. As the end date looms closer she might just do it, hopefully not.

Isn’t it ironic though that those who promoted and voted leave might well bring about the demise of their own country. After the break up of the UK, it will cease to exist. UKIP will have to change their name :grin:


#609

I very much hope that the UK doesn’t break up as a consequence of Brexit but i have huge sympathy for the Scottish and NI people who voted to stay and are now being forced to leave because of the English and Welsh votes.


#610

Yes, me to. IMO this alone should be enough to stop brexit. All countries of the UK should have a veto on whether we leave or stay as a whole as it threatens the integrity of the UK. All for one and one for all.


#611

what the Brexit issue has demonstrated to me very vividly is how much “real leadership” in political affairs today. that sort of vacuum could be dangerous, but I hope against hope that we’ll spared the consequences… though I see worrying signs already…

enjoy/ken


#612

If there were to be another referendum, I wouldn’t be so sure about the outcome - the intransigence and attitudes of the Brussels elite have certainly dismayed a lot of voters …

And if the outcome were a vote to Leave, you (et al) would accept that? Again, I’m not so sure. After all, you’ve got form, haven’t you …


#613

I must admit, I have a great deal of sympathy with this view … rings “fair” for such a momentous decision – but of course its probably too late now as the referendum wasn’t cast in that way

enjoy/ken


#614

A second referendum would be very different. People are now enlightened and know the consequences of their vote.

Not only that, remainers will accept the battle is lost if the vote went against them again.


#615

They are not being “forced to leave” at all - they participated in a UK-wide referendum and they are in the UK. The Government widely publicised that the outcome would be implemented. Were they expecting their own outcomes? If that is what they want, then go for it. I regard the pursuit of independence as a laudable objective. But until then …


#616

They are being forced to leave. N Ireland and Scotland are countries where the majority voted remain in both. If the UK ignores that simple fact then it doesn’t deserve them.


#617

You only want another referendum because you think it will overturn the previous outcome - as I said, I get that.

But if you really want to witness a deficit in democracy, look no further than the EU - the very people you want to keep sleeping with.

Good luck with the argument …


#618

They are not separate - they are part of the UK and so they abide by the UK’s decision. Which bit is difficult to understand?

And, as I said, if they want to leave, then go for it. Self-determination is a wonderful concept …


#619

The problem with your position/argument is that nobody said ever there would be a 2nd referendum - we were all given the chance to influence the outcome and we were told that the outcome would be respected. But now you (et al) want to move the goalposts. How do you think that is going down?

And how would another campaign be different? And why would the outcome carry any more weight than the previous outcome?