Okay,you are right. Let me rephrase that. “Why would that be of any influence”
The clock in the various network devices that is.
How DAC clocking is of influence to the resulting audio signal is clear to me. No questions there.
And just to be clear,I am not questioning all these audiophile switches and other devices are of influence,if you hear it they are. Period. Not going to debate that.
Just curious about the theory behind it.
I get the powersupply and cabling part in a hifi system but never got the network clocking part. So if someone of the knowledgeable lot here could explain this…
3 Likes
@SneakyPete, there are numerous posts about the networking clocking part in the forum and others, but these arguments never convince some people. However, below are some quotes from the well-known and highly respected HQ Player developer, and you may find his comments are interesting:
“Since the USB clock is not used for audio. And master clock responsible for clocking audio is owned by the DAC, I don’t see any benefit in reclocking USB (or Ethernet for that matter either). These clocks have no relation to audio clocks, they just facilitate data transfer between two RAM buffers.”
And in reply to someone who said:
Maybe a better signal causes the receiver to easier handle the input, thereby producing less work and less internal noise.
Btw, it’s a little similar to how the clock seems to matter for ethernet switches, and even external clocks to for example etherRegen (which already has a good clock) seems to matter. There is a thread about that here on the forum.
and the reply:
I’d love to see measurements from DAC output showing the difference.
It won’t make anything “easier”, as signal transitions are either translated correctly or incorrectly. In case of incorrect translation, you get error counters incremented and you can see. But so far, error counters in my switches are showing 0 errors despite having many terabytes worth of data having been transferred over.
I don’t use any audiophile networking gear, I trust Cisco and Hewlett-Packard Enterprise more on networking gear.
No it won’t, the other end of USB will have it’s own clock. And this clock is not related to audio clocks, it is only used to transfer USB data packets between two RAM buffers. Then audio clock will fetch data out of another RAM buffer that contains audio samples unpacked from USB data packets by the MCU.
2 Likes
But I agree that PSU does make some differences, and I have already said that a number of times here. This is something that can be measured, and greatly depends on the DAC (isolation, etc) and the overall system connections.
1 Like
So explain why audiophile switches use ocxo clocks ? And why many found that connecting an external ocxo clock to the existing switch gives better sounding results ?
But please, don’t tell me it’s subjective. It’s no more subjective than going for a better power cable or improve the isolation of audio components.
It explains why you ‘might’ hear some SQ improvement with a good psu, so ‘your’ DAC may be a problem. 
1 Like
People have strong fixed views - so this is my experience:
I am a Physicist by training that worked in Electronics for some 30 years beginning Analogue through digital designs - line-multiplexes to Cisco CCNA installations in large corporate customers when the company finally prized me from design (which I loved) into management - then enough of that and Retired! I’m not claiming to be expert but do know a little of what ‘should’ make a difference…etc.
It took me many years to finally get a streaming sytem (ND555) as a source as I had always hated how streaming sourced sounded compared to any other non-streaming kind, beit Vinyl or CD (I had CD555).
Finally I had a Demo at my Dealer a number of years ago of ND555 fed by Melco server - the ND555 alone also excellent but the Melco in combination with it enabled the timing-lift I was missing to be present - I like it and purchased it - all done…right… No.
Dealer suggested a better switch to feed the Melco over my cheap commercial Netgear one - got a SH Cisco 2960 and it was miles better - why - no idea.
Tried an Ethernet Regenerator (ER) switch after the Cisco and the sound quality took a big leap-up to the extent it made the Cisco switch sound dirty and blurred - why - no way it really can do it on a purely digital comms perspective, but it did so another mechanism at play - I hear what I hear.
Then a few months after and a lot of people suggesting a better PS on the ER would be worth it - I plonked in an old 70s era Linear PS (not serviced since the 80s) Analoge dials - very non HiFi, but it was an experiment. I was not going to spend hundreds or even thousands on a PS before I had a reason - in short that PS is still there and it blew-away the ERs own SMPS - more openness, better tone colour rendition, more neutrality …just obviously better.
Leaving aside the Ethernet Cables discussion - the switch does make a huge and important difference.
If I was going to venture possible reasons I’s say not much or nothing to do with the data - but more lower noise injection in both amplitude and timing-edge excitations non-linearities - it is almost impossible to keep RF frequencies from getting in and messing-up the performance.
…anyway - no big (or small) Axe to grind here - it does make a difference I found in context of my system and is easy to hear by others that wondered what I’d done.
DB.
7 Likes
@anon23425299
Yes,these are exactly my arguments.
But I see a lot of technically very savvy members here (at least I think they are,no pun intended) that think otherwise. Hence my question to them,please explain. What am I missing? Honest question,I am open minded.
1 Like
@anon23425299
Well,actually I meant PSU’s like the XPS(DR) and 555PS(DR) and such.
And with cabling interlinks and speaker cables.
Not sure if a linear PS and/or ethernet cabling would make a lot of difference in the digital domain. But as you say,maybe it does to some extend. I can see the logic behind that.
But my question is specific about the clock in network components. Hopefully someone knows.
As indicated by the HQ Player developer (and as implied by the Linn CEO), external clock to the DAC does ‘not’ matter, and I agree with them, however, that’s said, it is not easy to prove or measure.
Yes,someone,please do. Why? Honest question. I get the RF interference part that could mess things up but let’s stick to the clock in network equipment. Why would you need an ultra expensive ultra stable and accurate clock there?
I like what is said here, but it is a specific problem with the copper ethernet. FO is different, but it also has its own set of specific issues…
Update;
A quick update on where we’re at following the recent changes.
Things have settled down nicely and we’re really enjoying the change.
A couple of things that we have found very interesting;
- As some of you are aware we listen a lot to Jazz24 for background listening, both at home and in the van. It is now so easy, if having heard a new track that we like, to download the album from Qobuz, instead of having to buy it. (Cheaper as well, as we might not like the whole album). Consequently, it has opened up new music to us, which we are certainly enjoying.
-Volume level; we have found that we are now listening at around the 8-9 level, whereas previously with the other sources, (Linn LP12, Naim CD5 XS, Internet Radio Adapter), we were listening at around the 9-10 level. Not sure why this would be, but there you go.
Going to continue for a while as we are as we are thoroughly enjoying it.
It’s interesting reading all the posts about technical side of networking, not sure if I understand all of it, but it is very informative, which leads me onto further investigation.
The next step for us to consider is playing with a demo set of the ChordARAY Plugs and see where that leads to.
1 Like
Well,imho it should not be up to you (or me) to prove that it does not matter. It is up to the ones that say it does matter to explain why. And present some evidence. Other than “someone else hears it too”…
4 Likes
In the English Electric switch and also the Uptone Etheregen, the main difference vs the cheap Ethernet switches is the ocxo clock inside. The psu are a bit improved SMPS too , but nothing more. Adding good linear ps to them give another uplift in sound.
2 Likes
The problem is that some answers reside in the description of these audiophile switches. The key seems to be the timing. Data of course is not affected. However like you i would like to know exactly what better clocks inside switches do in the audio chain, technically speaking.
3 Likes
It’s not up to anyone to prove anything. People are quite free to compare notes of what they find without having to understand the reason why. It’s a bit like eating out: you don’t have to know the recipe or understand the chemistry.
2 Likes
Because it’s the only reason why they can charge 500+ for a switch that costs 20
3 Likes
Exactly my findings!!! I have just finshed my Belleson psu…I first powered my passive Nuc…nice uplift…then I replaced the chinese flimsy feed cable from psu with a braided kimber lookalike…holy crap faberoo uplift…amazing. Finally my psu also puts out 5v for my AQvox SE…I connected this up with another braided cable…wowee…the sound quality uplift was big. I can honestly say I have never heard anything like the performance I am getting now…no bull… All I can say is if you are serious about your ND555…get 2 555ps dr psu’s and get a good network switch…and power your Roon Nuc and switch with something like a Sean Jacobs power supply with good cables. You will be amazed…and staggered… Just as a side note I replaced the powerlead feeding the psu with a 24 cable braided powercord…that also improved things… Please note I was intially extremly sceptical about getting any improvement… honest to god…its like having a whole new system…expansiveness of sound stage, detail, bass slam and speed…purity of vocals, micro imaging… The computing and network element of a high performance streaming system is hyper critical.
3 Likes
I’m a bit of skeptic with a lot of this stuff but I can tell you that swapping a standard switch for an EE8 made a difference to my setup. Not huge but it was a definite improvement. I have no idea why or how but it just did.
4 Likes
Same here. Swapped a fairly bog standard TP Link switch for an EE8 switch and there was a noticeable improvement. After a while, changed the PSU to an IFI Power2 PSU and, again a noticeable improvement.
3 Likes