WHAAAT……Bu**r!!!
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Oops sorry Nigel
Apologies for the thread drift, but @Gazza , did you ask Steve if the new DAC/technology that would go into a new Naim DAC would make their way swiftly into the streamers? Also was there any mention of the possibility of a ‘modular’ DAC upgrade for streamers with new DAC technology, or am I hoping too hard?
I have asked this question from Rob Watts - who has devoted a large portion of his professional life to the design of a digital source that betters analogue sources. The question being, is there technology than can make digital sound even better ?
(By the way it is worth noting he used to own an LP12 himself)
His answer was (not his exact words) that there aren’t too may ways to build a discrete element DAC (and moving away from a chip based DAC), and if one wants to optimize DAC performance, one invariably ends up with the way DCS and Chord have done it.
May be Naim will be the third company to do it this way?
In the meantime I am not losing any sleep over this, knowing that a Chord DAC has 30+ years of R&D and is really as good as it gets, today in 2019.
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It’s useful to mention that not all finds the Dave completely natural. Some, on other forums, found the vocals a bit harsch sounding.
Simon S found it too forward and preferred to stay with the hugo.
I personally never heard of someone saying that a vinyl replay is harsch or too forward. So i would be careful with this analog like sounding of the Dave.
I will report next week on it. Will try to listen to it with different components and with and without a preamp. Maybe it will be a revelation, who knows.
GNo it was just very general chat…i mentioned that he had said it was the last outing for this dac in an interview. He agreed, but said they had plenty of ideas they were working on in research, already. I did not ask about stand alone dacs, as i tried if you remember when we visited HQ with the forum. Got no comment that time. The new streamers are about a year old, so another 5 or so years would be my guess for a change of technology? The processing power in the new streamers gives them quite a bit of flexibility going forward to update these for quite some time. But i am under no illusions this will not be my last streamer…If i can stay alive😉
Maybe the limiting factor is the stock of this old chipset. When they run out they will need a new 500 series streamer. We were told they had a large stock, but service will need a supply as well, who knows how long they can keep making them…only Naim.
That is how some people have described the Chord DACs.
As for ‘forward’, I struggle with the term, though I thought is a term that has been used to describe the “Naim sound”, and nothing to do with a digital vs anologue sound.
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over an extended listening with my DAVE I started to feel I had lost that softer natural analogue sound I really loved with my Hugo( Quote Simon S). then »
Yes there were some recordings that really sounded wonderful and breath taking, but in the end I felt for my tastes the DAVE was too forward more often than not«
Audio Bacon review of the Dave: « The only gripe I had with the DAVE was this harsh glare in the treble. I don’t hear this with the Lumin S1 or Berkeley. I’m not sure if it’s because the DAVE is so transparent it exposes the treble bump on the Abyss or if the Berkeley just does a better job at painting a more realistic picture for female/male vocals. One thing is apparent however, the DAVE does everything else better.«
I don’t hear this at all…
It was in fact the femal vocal performance that Dave was so superior to the Hugo (that made me spend the money). And I did not want to spend the money !
On this track
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i don’t say it’s like that, but i have already found such comments on forums. Some say it’s very natural, some find it a bit bright or harsh on voices…
For now, the most natural dac i could listen to was the linn kdsm. It was really analog like. However a bit thin and not enough involving ( vs naim).
I find DAVE more engaging than the Naim DAC I used to use. It sounds more natural to me. However, it is when you add the M-Scaler it really excels. It makes everything sound more real and more alive. If you like female vocals then try to hear this wonderful album played on Blu2 DAVE.
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How people hear Dave could of course depend on the rest of the system (including room), sounding like that in some systems and not others, just like other components…
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I fear that you are right Gazza and it’s why I’m remaining on the sidelines along with my NDS for company. Big money for a long lived ‘investment’ like 552 or 500 amp (which are Naim’s best shot after decades of development in a relatively static technology) is hard enough to justify, but the thought that I could drop £13k on a digital source, where technology is still developing fast and risk having to spend similarly again in 5 years or so to stay ahead doesn’t give me great comfort. I’ve heard the ND555 enough to be well aware of how much better it is than my NDS, but I just can’t get comfortable with the thought of making the leap. Not yet anyway…
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I see where you are coming from Kevin, but will this not be an ongoing problem until streaming and DAC technology matures? At my age, I will be pushing up daisies by then……
I hear Dave as being quite forward when played directly to my 250. The 282 seems to smooth things out a bit, which is perhaps not what it is best known for, but that’s what I hear.
Naim is not alone in using the PCM1704. Some very expensive and exclusive DACs still use them. Their solution has been various R2R ladders etc rather than go delta-sigma.
That said I think Linn, Naim and Ayre has done great job around standard chipsets.
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The chip is no longer being manufactured, and I gather Naim have stockpiled a load of them to secure the future of the ND555, but I can’t see them continuing to use it in any future products.
You don’t have to “stay ahead”! If the very best that you can find today, be that ND500, Dave, DCS or whatever sounds really great to your ears, it still will in 5 years’ time (unless by then your ears are limiting the sound more than the gear…).
Indeed and the world has moved on… sure Naim probably have the experience and know how on extracting as much goodness out of the AD SHARC coupled with the Texas Instruments PCM1704K as they can, but I would be surprised if Naim were not already experimenting with newer more capable technology to extract even more goodness from.
Could the world stop spinning for just five minutes…!
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