Dem of Melco in 500 System

Nice and straight in with a top set up, like your style, enjoy

True but, as explained in https://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/Ripping.htm, bit-perfect copies are not guaranteed by design for audio CD. This is the reason why bit-perfect ripping programs often rely on multiple rips or on comparisons with external databases like Accuraterip, see http://www.accuraterip.com.

This CD ripping drift of the thread is like a Brazilian telenovela, full of twists and turns, and constantly renewing itself :laughing:

But there is one thing that is avoided, whether consciously or unconsciously…

Why not post a track ripped with dBPower Amp and the same track ripped with the Melco D100?

Everyone could then listen to those tracks and post a comment based on experience.

I would be very much interested in digging into those files and analyse their content.

Some people don’t seem to care whether a difference is real or purely in the head - and that of course is fine if they are happy with it, but others prefer certainty, especially when committing money. Claims that the Melco rips sound better are rarely accompanied by any indication of attempts to ensure objectivity - however there was at least one I recall a while back where it seemed that had been done. The question then became one of what difference in the files is there, as if the files are identical they cannot sound different.

Some of us like to understand why: what is it that makes one thing sound different from another. Others aren’t interested - but knowledge is what drives progress, and may help us find a way of improving sound quality without committing to buying expensive kit.

From memory with the Melco difference discussed previously there was speculation ranging from the possible influence of whether how the metadata is embedded might affect microtiming of data recovery during play, to even the insidious possibility that some embedded identification mark added by Melco might cause Melco to play its own rips straight, otherwise programmed to deliberately distort the music in some way. The person reporting the objectively assessed difference had done some data comparison, finding the files apparently identical, though accepting that was only with the tools available to him/her.

Sharing the files was suggested at that time, but unfortunately was blocked on the basis that it would be copyright infringement. Now, this would be a really beneficial thing to do: so if anyone with a Melco ripper, and a.n.other doing verified accurate rips, could do both on some non-copyright music, preferably more than one piece, and share, then it would enable anyone with other tools to examine what is going on (and also enable disbelievers to try for themselves).

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Have done this already thanks to someone on Roons forum and after a bit of investigation found them to be identical other than metadata and the silence padding that’s used at front end of the files that’s down to different cd drive offsets.

At first I felt I could hear a minor difference between the two when played. I did not know which was which until later when I was asked to say if I preferred one over the other. So no bias here. But after prolonged listening it was never fixed as to which I preferred so I started to doubt myself so further analysis was required.

On inspection, they both contained the same musical data. When I compared them in audio anaylsis software that can compare the files they also appeared identical. These tools also allow to play both files in tandem so you can seamlessly switch between them with no delay.

Playing them in this way, I could detect no sonic differences it was like playing just the one source. When performing a difference check which is used to compare one audio file to another and again they showed no differences essentially it reverses the polarity of one and overlays it to the other, so anything the same will cancel each other out. Same principle we use for detecting differences in images in my job when it’s gone through different stages.

When played in this mode compete silence, again identicating they are the same musical content. If they had been different I would have heard some differences and seen some in the display of the waveforms however small.

Software used was Protools, Adobe Audition, Audacity. DACs used, Audioquest Cobalt, RME ADI 2 both with Focal Elear and Meze 99 headphones.

I think this was comprehensive for me to say they are the same.

However when listening via the hifi and using Roon or UPnP where you can’t compensate for the lag or offset then they might sound different to a user but which one they prefer not sure about.

Whether the offset plays a part is a question that might lead to an answer. Most reading on this offset states it matters not to the sound it’s purely there as drives cannot accurately seek to the exact start
of each track and each drive has slightly different tolerance in doing so. The ripping software works this out and compensates for this when doing an accurarip comparison.

Maybe the offset plays some part in how the sound is decoded and effects timing of the samples in the DAC? Maybe Melco are doing some post processing based on the files metadata? I doubt that last bit is true, but could be tested by removing all metadata from both files and see if they sound different.

The most likely candidate I feel is that like all of this we as humans have limitations and cognitive processes that get in the way and mess with our perceptions. We can’t accurately compare two things given the delays however small that delay is and we are basing it on memory of something you heard in the past which will not be accurate.

I feel this argument will carry on regardless of how many tests those of us who seek the reasoning and truth behind such things and those that don’t.

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Speculating, based on what you noted: if the offset assignment is done as and for the reason your previous paragraph suggested, then it might be that the Melco ripper simply applies whatever offset is optimum for the Melco player. If the offset makes a small difference to the sound, that might make it the Melco rip be the best sounding on a Melco - but not necessarily on any other player, when whichever rip offset most closely fits the player might be the one that sounds best, and if neither matches then might both simply sound marginally different but neither definitively best.

If that is the case, it has implications for portability of files between players if ripped with a player-specific ripper. It also has implications for music downloaded from the original master, which would not have offset pegged to any particular player.

It’s a hyphothesis that might play out for local playback via it’s usb out but that does not explain UPnP or using Roon where the playing is done on different hardware and it just pulls the files raw offset and all if not transcoding.

Sure, this was what I was trying to say - a rip is not a binary choice between bit-perfect or having read errors, as interpolation happens when reading errors cannot be fully corrected by the error correction. This is an important difference to data CDs. Therefore the Accuraterip check, because two rips can both be successful but still different if there was interpolation

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Try feeding your S100 from a Sonore Optical Module Deluxe using a Cisco SFP, you have 2 slots so you can isolate from your network and in my case also from my Roon core :wink:

Make sure the N10 to D100 cable is a USB B type 3 at the D100 end!

Linns article here is a good explanation of ripping process and potential errors.

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Congratulations, the units look very nice! I am pretty sure that for CD replay you could connect the N10 (USB DAC output) to the ND555 (SPDIF input) via a USB to SPDIF interface but better check with Melco. There is plenty of options, I seem to remember that the DAC-V1 uses an Audiohilleo interface, www.audiophilleo.com/.

If anyone has got this to work please let us know out of interest.

Yes it works my D100 is using a Berkeley Audio Design Alpha USB usb/spdif using Shunyata Alpha usb cable and Naim DC1 Coax gives CD play back via the N10 front pannel and also N10 play back to the bnc spdif on the NSX2 (using using Roon).

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Thanks Peter

How much is the Berkeley interface and where in UK can you buy one? They don’t seem readily available in UK and possibly £1000-2000, which is obviously not trivial. and makes a separate DAC cheaper, though I don’t know which would sound better? Or are there other cheaper acceptable similar equivalents?

Neil

How about this one? Would it do the job?

Alternative currently is to play CDs on an old Arcam BDP300 DVD/Blueray which is not good…

A new DAC makes little sense: you already have the ND555 which I assume you like and which is a very good DAC indeed. There is plenty good of USB to SPDIF interfaces at very reasonable prices, just check the old Naim forum or the Audiophile Style forum. I have tried the Shiit Eitr, the Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock and the M2Tech hiFace Evo 1 and they all worked flawlessly as sources for my Naim DAC. I guess they would work as well for the ND555. You can get the Mutec from Thomann for £899 and with a 30 days money-back warranty.

Doesn’t the BDP300 have a SPDIF output? For DVD, Bluray and occasional CD listening I have an Oppo 203. It is connected to the Naim DAC via SPDIF through a Supra coaxial cable.

Yes around the £1200 mark you need to import one as the solder contains lead so they can not be sold in the EU. I brought mine back from the US on a work trip in 2019. Matrix Audio X-SPDIF is well regarded. You can experiment with the USU cable Wireworld are a good starting point go for 1.5m long if you can.