I recall talking to Will about this during one of the first betas after the NDX2 was released. I had a server discovery issue, which turned out to be caused by an incorrect router config that prevented wireless devices (in this case my phone running the Naim app) from exchanging discovery messages with UPnP servers that had wired connections. He explained that discovery, browsing and play queue selection were performed entirely by the app, not the streamer.
I’m not sure that all streamers work like this. The 1st gen Naim streamers allowed you to browse using the remote, so I guess they must have worked differently.
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Thanks Chris. So what you are saying is that the Naim app is communicating with Asset and telling it what to send to the streamer.
In practice, it doesn’t really matter how it works, but it’s interesting that others have said very clearly that it works the other way round. Who knows? Maybe I’ll write to my contacts at Naim for clarification, simply because it’s made me inquisitive.
I believe the Naim app browses the UPnP server (or Tidal, Qobuz, …), obtains the Url of the track/album you choose/select, which is then provided to the streamer to enable it to stream the selected track/album from the server. The app does not tell the server what to stream.
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You could also ask if the streamer is communicating with the app during playback. And how frequently.
I think it does, at least with the 2nd gen Naim streamers.
Found this post from Steve H which seems to be consistent with what I understood from Will.
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Surely the app tells the streamer what to stream from the server?
Edit: This article The Complete Guide To HiFi UPnP / DLNA Network Audio - CA Academy - Audiophile Style suggests that the Server is instructed by the app (the Control Point) what to stream to the streamer (Renderer).
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Surely that could means, the app populates the play queue on the streamer, with URLs from the server.
These are the three simple questions I’ve asked Naim.
When I browse my albums on my NAS, which runs Asset as the server, am I browsing the nas directly, without going via my Nova?
When I choose an album, am I telling the server what to send, or telling the Nova what to ask for?
When I check the app during listening, is the information about elapsed time etc coming from the server or the Nova?
Hopefully simple questions will elicit simple answers and we will then know exactly how it works, at least when using Asset on a NAS.
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Before this topic closes with everyone satisfied that the answer to the question " [Does the Controller affect sound quality? Maybe an idiot question]" is no, then I would just like to toss a spanner into the works with my recent issue.
Earlier this year I updated my streamer from a SuperUniti to a NSC 222, I had never previously experienced any issue streaming music, including Hi-Res from my NAS to the streamer via a network switch, all LAN.
However, I started to notice that randomly I had brief pauses in play, sometimes once every 3 or 4 days and sometimes half a dozen times a in a night. I even had a piece of music jump backwords several times by about 30 seconds every few seconds!
As nothing else had changed since my SuperUniti I thought it must be the 222.
I posted this anomaly on the forum to see if anyone else had experienced similar - no takers!
I contacted my dealer to arrange for the unit to be returned to Naim but first I was asked by Name to describe my network and carry out some tests. Having done this the response from Naim was the “mesh” wi-fi in my house was the probable cause, the 222 being more prone to this than the SuperUniti for some reason.
The explanation given by Naim was as follows: Double NAT (Network Address Translation) occurs when your mobile device is connected to a router that is obtaining its internet connection from a second router with its own separate network. This setup can lead to complications as your network traffic is being routed through two different routers, potentially causing performance and connectivity problems. This though could be due to the network type you are using it sounds from your details that this is what is known as a ‘‘Mesh’’ network as these have multiple NAT codes.
The recommendation was to switch off the remote discs (it is a BT Smart Hub 2) and this should solve the problem.
The conclusion is that having done that, at the expense of other things in the house, it is better if the app on the iPad is switched off after the play que is loaded but still has happened if the app is active, showing the cover art and other meta data.
I will carry on trying to fix this issue.
So the answer to the question “is the sound quality affected” is sort of YES!
Paul.
Paul, all your story there tells anyone is set your network up correctly. It has nothing to do with if a remote control changes sound.
More widely, can I just say that if people are getting this ‘serious’ about hifi then perhaps, just perhaps they may have health issues that need addressing.
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Thanks for the medical advice, Gary.
What medical qualifications do you have to give that advice?
No need to get defensive there JimDog unless I hit a nerve of course.
If you cannot see smackings of OCD throughout the streaming audio section then perhaps you arn’t really looking.
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Yes.
There are many control apps for uPNP and they communicate directly with Asset to browse, getting album data/metadata/art etc.
Only when you choose to “play” does the browsing client app communicate URLs for tracks with your streaming device.
On non naim apps you can start a track on one device, then half way through choose to send same track to another streaming device. That kinda proves the streamer plays no part in the browse process - the second device knows nothing until it is sent a URL to request from the server.
Some apps can show the URL for tracks etc.
For example here’s a track from my Asset - http://192.168.1.146:26125/content/(long string of numbers/digits).flac
The long string of numbers is uniquely generated from Asset’s internal database and bears no resemblance to album/artist.
Asset (behind the scenes) is actually sending your browsing client MULTIPLE URLs for a single track, for various formats (audio/xflac, audio/wav, audio/L16 etc.), and it is up to the browsing client which URL is sent to streaming device.
You are telling the streaming device what URLs to request from the server (Asset).
The streamer uses the http URLs sent to get the actual track FLAC data via HTTP.
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Much fun is made of OCD but it can be a severely debilitating illness. Most people have a benign version where you may check things twice, or think did I lock the back door etc but once it gets beyond this it can really get in the way of what you want to do. In this scenario listening to music is the object yet doesn’t happen, or is restricted owing to faffing around with the myriad of devices and combinations.
I thought this too but decided not to say so.
garyi, I disagree with your assertion that “all your story there tells anyone is set your network up correctly. It has nothing to do with if a remote control changes sound”, if as seems possible that the controller can change the sound by inserting stutters into the music.
On an expanded note, can you enlighten me how to set up a BT Smart Hub 2, differently to as instructed by BT, I would be so grateful. You seem to imply that I am a bit of a dimwit. I don’t consider myself to be the most intelligent person in the world, however having spent over 40 years as head designer of a large aerospace company for safety critical computing systems with both military and civil aircraft, I’m not the most stupid either!
Maybe I should have made my observations on the susceptibility of the NSC 222 in a different thread but for Naim to state that the 222 design does make it more susceptible than older products such as the SuperUniti or MuSo was a surprise.
Paul.
The stutters are not coming from the controller. They are coming from having double NAT on the network, or more commonly this is described as having two routers with DHCP operating on the one network.
This is basic incorrect network set up by whoever did it and nothing to do with anything that is sitting on the network like a server, streamer or app.
Technicaly, if all hardware, networks and mains are functioning properly, the control application should not be able to affect the quality.
The difference in SQ is caused by the issues within the system. Therefore, if you find that the router, or control app, or network cable introduces any audible changes, you should better start investigating the issues with the components in your system.
Typically, assuming the components are ok with each other, the only guy to blame is the noise floor that significantly affects the quality by stealing micro details, air, transparency, etc. Except noise floor, the thermal mode is also important.
So, instead of exercising with the control app software, I’d suggest you to start looking into your system.
For instance, the impact of network cables on performance - they can serve as improper grounding, which means you may have issues with the main power supply or presence of double insulated components.
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Paul, I have a mesh system, the Google Nest Wifi Pro. It has three boxes, all of which are hard wired. Touching wood, everything is fine. It’s odd that your BT is doing the double NAT thing. The Nest is very very simple, or maybe simplistic, so maybe the BT is cleverer and more configurable, hence your problems. I’m sure it’s worth rummaging around in the settings and asking Mr Google if there is some option that is ticked by default that perhaps shouldn’t be.