There’s some really techie stuff being discussed here, and I don’t really understand most of it.
I’ve been a member on this forum for long enough to know who’s who regarding technical issues with digital, but after a good few days with the EE8 and listening to music just from my NAS; in fact I’m playing a Tears For Fears / Elemental 44.1 ~ 16bit rip from my CD collection right now and this album has always sounded a bit cold and bright to my ears so I’ve never really played it that much. However, the sound has dramatically changed to a much more weighty & airy and I can hear more complex synths etc. In other words, more enjoyable and I have fallen in love with this album again. That’s just one example.
It’s actually made me think twice about spending a fortune (however daft that sounds) on a CD555PS for my NDX2, and just get a XPS instead. Well, that’s for another thread I suppose, and I’ve just put substantial funds (ironically) into an analogue source. What a life this hobby is eh.
Whatever has been said and argued on this thread, I don’t know how the EE8 really works apart from having high grade components inside and the case is superbly made too, it has definitely improved the sound coming from my speakers. Some time ago I just connected it all up and pressed play but now I’m tweaking things up a bit and reaping rewards even if it’s costing me a little bit more money.
I am more convinced digital is sounding really bloody good now after being a real sceptic for years. Then again, I’m lucky to own a high end streamer which is probably one of the best black boxes I’ve ever purchased.
Thanks to all of you who has contributed here - I do respect the knowledge you all have, even if I don’t quite know all the tech stuff.
What you hear is your opinion, valuable to all of us reading, appreciated and not to be challenged. But the assertion that the EE8 has high grade components inside is moot. Considering that the original Zyxel switch sells brand new for $20 USD, what’s inside probably costs less than $10.
Exactly… hence as I say the biggest noticeable artefact that can affect SQ is analogue common mode noise… which is nothing to do with network data etc.. and why the second generation streamers from Naim was such a great enhancement over the first, and why Naim were so pleased with it. Albeit symbol sync occurs constantly for 100mbps or higher irrespective of any data flow.
I find it encouraging that more appear to be challenging the marketing twaddle that emanates from some quarters.
Let’s say for the sake of the argument that the TCXO costs $40 however unlikely, and that it has an upgraded SMPS with better CAPS, although it is just a mundane walwart, how do you go from $20 to $900? That case must be made out of space grade titanium.
Same as a HiCap or any other consumer electronics product….!!! There’s always been lots of discussion around whether the price of a 555PS is justifiable (based on parts cost)…
It is up to the consumer as to whether the price is acceptable or not.
I agree that these switches really do involve some eye watering margins though!
I’m surprised that so many people are surprised at the mark-up with these low quantity production items. I worked in high volume manufacturing for most of my life, where we were making millions of items a day. However, they weren’t so called ‘widgets’ and contained a high degree of variability and constant change. The scourge of Western style manufacturing as all they want to do is make the same thing every day, day in and day out, which will of course result in very low costs to the manufacturer but won’t necessarily get passed on to the Customer!
I’d often see the BOM (bill of materials) on prototype stuff. Typically less than 100 items and the costs were absolutely obscene. I could also see where the costs went but nothing really stuck out as being that expensive. Typically a 100 prototype items could cost us anything between £10k-£25k and we would normally retail these for around £10 an item. Scale production to 500,000 items and it all begins to make some sort of sense.
The running costs of a big production unit would frighten NASA, so don’t be too hard on the small little cottage industries making your low quantity hifi products.
Well, my EE8 Switch works perfectly fine in my set up.
I must say I have never compared it to anything else. In my specific case I may have to consider trying some ‘standard’ non-audio switches and decide if I find them worth the investment as the EE8 did cost me exactly nothing… It was a gift.
Just to show that everyone has their own perspective. Everyone has their own set of ears and brains as well. Just enjoy what you like most and let nobody tell that your choice was a waste of money. That’s your call, no one else’s.
Might I be right in assuming you don’t develop and sell your own products? Your focus on circuit board costs suggests not.
Firstly, even if you are right about the circuit board, the case probably costs several times this, making it the most expensive component in the device and, incidentally, probably the reason most people who compare the EE8 with a stock switch prefer the EE8 by a margin.
Then there is the salary paid to the employee assembling the device; unlikely to be in the UK in this case but if so then salary+NI+pension etc.
And the cost of rental of the workshop/factory premises. And business rates.
And corporation (in UK) and other taxes, all of which ultimately need to be funded by the consumer.
Then there are dealer margins which I think we all know are “meaningful”. But the dealers earn it through demoing, trading in etc and of course they have their own stores and staff to pay for.
Then in many countries there are distributor costs: the guys who select and sustain the dealer network, prune the dead wood etc. They usually make a lot less than the dealer in percentage terms.
And finally there are marketing costs to be paid for: Chord would not sell a single EE8 if people didn’t know it existed. Manufacturer and/or distributor and/or dealer incurred.
If you want a Zyxel, buy a Zyxel. But if you want something (sonically) better than a Zyxel, understand why you are not going to get it for $20.
Exactly, especially when you consider the actual digital network part as cheap as chips….… really basic minimum functionality for most of the devices.
A basic but not rock bottom switch subsystem for quantities of 1000 is £8.72.. and provides looking this morning on a component wholesale web site
Ethernet ICs 7-Port 10/100 Ethernet Switch with Fault Recovery, 1588 v2, AVB, EEE, WOL, QoS, LinkMD+, Industrial temp.
There are cheaper switch sub system offerings without EEE for example at around £5.00
One thing I should say… there is much talk about clocks… but this is to be clear this is the serial synchronisation clock. … and when fast Ethernet or higher is being used, the synchronisation is constantly sent using what is known as Idle Control Symbols.. whether there is any data frames or not… this allows the receivers Phase Locked Loop to work reliably, so the serialisation clock does not have to be resynced on every frame.
So the graphs earlier on refer to higher level data throughput and NOT what is physically on the Ethernet link.
If you were using old fashioned 10mbps link speeds, then indeed it would be bursty down on the link, but 10 Mbps link speed is effectively obsolete now.
So the these clocks drive symbol rates… these ouranalogue signals… hence why I suggest focus on this. Use a mains earthed Ethernet switch, and use a reasonably stable clock to minimise analogue phase noise power, which most switches have now, but clearly just like with SPDIF, the less phase noise energy, the less energy there is to couple into a network peer’s electronics.. If super clock accuracy at the actual network layer is important then you need a switch that supports PTP. Not aware of any consumer device supporting PTP in hardware.
Just to show that everyone has their own perspective. Everyone has their own set of ears and brains as well. Just enjoy what you like most and let nobody tell that your choice was a waste of money. That’s your call, no one else’s
absolutely people can can spend their money on what they want - I guess some call it trickle down economics - its the extravagant and fanciful cause and effect theories that unfortunately go with these purchases for some that some of us challenge and debate… and if I am honest it is sometimes a little entertaining Perhaps its some sort of cognitive justification process?
There are often a myriad of relatively mundane reasons why an aural presentation can sound subtly different with consumer audio.
So you completely ignore any of the additional information regarding other costs involved in the design, manufacture, distribution, selling and marketing of the EE8?
Now I feel you’re just being contentious for the sake of it. Are you sure there aren’t threads which are more aligned with your genuine interests?
What will you do next, start adding up the component costs of one of your Naim products and subjecting it to the same “logic”?
I suppose it’s one way of spending one’s one short precious life!
The product was already designed and manufactured by Zyxel, EE is merely doing an aesthetic rebranding, mostly if not entirely irrelevant to the performance.
Why do you tribute the $880 to the case, when it is attributable to other costs? Is it because you are looking at this entirely from the perspective of a customer deciding where to spend how much money?
Have you compared the two devices?
Did you buy the Zyxel? (Wild guess!)
Perhaps its some sort of cognitive justification process?