I have found another track which objectifies and explicitly shows the 552 better than the 252. It’s not all the ‘added realism’ or vague terms akin to this.
Man in the Long Dark Cloak - Bob Dylan:
252: The tapping drum is in the centre, soundstage great.
552: The tapping drum spreads across the centre - centre left, centre, centre right, soundstage of harmonica wider outside the speakers.
One doesn’t know the 252 limitations on this track until one hears the 552 version.
I post this, as I like to have clear language above ‘this sounds sublime’.
Does anyone else have distinct tracks they can give explicit, quantifiable examples like the above?
Hmm I’m not sure “empirical” means what people think it means here. I think the word should be “subjective”.
Empirical implies a clear quantifiable observation. There is probably empirical evidence that certain measurable factors behave better. But the listening tests are subjective.
As individuals, we describe, hear and experience, to name but a few, our experiences in a vast variety of ways; everything is totally personal.
Alighting on the thread, anticipated learning something. Without a back to back and blind test, for which there is no “empirical” evidence in op, relying on memory as a basis for a bland narrative is fraught with issues, starting with unconscious bias.
As @feeling_zen highlights, all judgements are subjective. Describing the difference as sublime, piques an interest which can be followed or ignored, ymmv.
it’s perfectly possible to do comparative empirical listening tests that are not subjective and do not require blind testing. The hifi test recordings are an example of this and are used to test whether hifi systems are correctly set up, eg left to right, centred sound, in phase. These of course tell the listener very little about the accuracy of the sound as a representation of the original music; such a judgment will be subjective.
Mmm not quite. If two persons separately observe the same phenomenon then it can be considered as empirical evidence. Still non quantifiable but also no longer subjective.
Also to stretch the meaning or to confirm an alternative meaning, particularly in philosophy, empirical evidence can be applied to a non quantifiable belief that many people hold. The obvious one is religion. God does not quantifiably exist but empirically God does exist because the population believes it to be so.
I get it - yep it is subjective in my perception, but what I’m trying to crystallise is that I can mathematically place a beat in three different places compared to one.
So I use the phrase ‘objectively’ advisedly, but it is a distinct one sound in the centre compared to three different locations spanning the centre; if I was selling a 552 to a customer upgrading from a 252, I would direct their attention to this.
(It’s all on the back of discovering old tracks not heard since prior the upgrade - quite a joy to be reminded of the upgrade’s value — we normalise our perception after all… e.g. imagine an active Statement system one year on, with a properly treated listening room…)
If you could show that what you heard on the 552 was as-intended then perhaps you could say it was ‘better’ and the 252 ‘limited’. But in the absence of that it’s just different, and you prefer it.
Well, as I understand empirical it means evidence as observed by sight, hearing, taste, touch or smell. I imagine we can safely ignore the last 3, and as the 552 and 252 look all but alike we can conclude that based on the hearing of owners and potential owners the empirical evidence is that the 552 comfortably outperforms the 252.
But given the sexy new styling of the NC I wonder if the aesthetics influence potential customers?!
I just replayed Man in the Long Dark Cloak on my ND555/552/500/801D4s. The tapping drum is an atmospheric presence in the track perhaps. The track is sparse and open and the different parts are very clearly located, I find the drum tap something that I’m not listening too particularly. Vocals in the center and the guitar fill parts off to the left. It is an excellent “hifi” demo track generally.
The song features amusingly in John Darko’s bingo list of songs that he finds feature much too often at hifi shows (link below).
Mmm, that doesn’t sound quite right on the observational subjective part… but we are getting into scientific / engineering territory here. An aggregated set of subjective assessments is usually considered a ‘mean opinion score’. An observation opinion is not quantifiable, other than someone has made an opinion, and is subjective, but the subjectivity aligns with an observed statistical model of observations.
One can look at identifying quantitative technical traits that support the subjective statistical outcome, and they in themselves are quantifiable … but the assessment is ultimately subjective and qualitative , as it is a statistical response… it is as you say empirical, but subjectively observed.
This technique is used for example in the legibility and quality of compressive voice and audio systems.
Now, back to the OP, I had empirical evidence from my observations that my 252 sounded better than my 552 with many of my recording masters and sources, as in my system, speakers and tastes, the resultant audio sounded more natural and less highlighted… such as female voices on less pristine masters… as I have posted a few times on the forum.
Now my empirical observations dont need to align with all other empirical observations… its a statistical observation… and according to this forum a minority of members have empirically observed the same as me.
You may be right here, but that would never make me buy a 500 series kit. If the drum floats or seems to move around it would do absolutely nothing for the enjoyment of the track.
Great track, but after a few seconds I’d forgotten about the drum, even though it was why I played the track.
Guitars and harmonica have a wonderful wide soundstage. Vocals clarity excellent. Drum and bass are clear but fade out of listening focus.
Maybe the 252 is doing something right, a very enjoyable listen.
Next time we’re at dealers might ask for a listen if they still have a 552 on the go. However it’s the way the 252 delivers music like this so effortlessly that has stopped our upgrade push up the naim ladder. 552 at some point no doubt, but no rush.
