The point I believe Xanthe was making was that if there are audible differences between digital cables, or switches for that matter, it’s not because the digital data is delivered incorrectly. In the vast majority of cases it is, and it doesn’t take a fancy audiophile cables (or switches) to achieve this fairly trivial task.
Even if data was delivered with errors or missing packets, you would expect to hear distinct stuttering or dropouts rather than reduced sound quality.
FWIW I would be surprised if your comparison held out, but even if it did, it would be nothing to do with the data itself.
I was trying to steer the topic back in that direction by mentioning that my argument applied to switches, not just to the USB cables that you were focusing on.
Exactly the same applies to all network components as I pointed out… and this includes the English Electric 8Switch - just because it’s an ‘audiophile’ product doesn’t exempt it from the normal requirements of a network switch!
ChrisSU was absolutely right about the point I was making, and despite your implied assertion that I excluded the subject of this thread, in fact, no I didn’t exclude it.
" doesn’t exempt it from the normal requirements of a network switch!"
Who said they are exempt? But from the reports, the fancy switches are doing a good job. Aren’t they ?
People are saying they sound better than the other ones that are not " audiophile product "
As well the fancy Usb cables, they are doing a good job too. Aren’t they? They sound better ( which is all it matters… ) . I couldn’t careless with theory behind …what I want it’s results.
They may sound better, or they may not sound better; in some circumstances they may even sound worse.
It all depends on the rest of your equipment and your environment; furthermore due to the number of factors involved (over which, for many HiFi systems installations we have no control) it’s effectively unpredictable.
If you want to adopt one of these solutions without thoroughly testing it* in your system / environment then by all means do so, just please don’t claim universal or predictable benefit for them.
*. Including suitable controls to eliminate confirmation bias.
Xanthe, I think you are spot on.
The interesting bit is your subconscious bias. In my professional world I undertook some courses on unconscious bias and how you mitigate a couple of years back… and the bottom line you can’t on subjective assessment alone, it’s how your brain works. You need to involve objectivity as well. The thing to be aware of is that you will have subconscious biases derived from your situation…
As much as you think you are not biased, the very process of you thinking that causes an unconscious bias, which you then try and compensate for… it is very prevalent when people assess other people.
The Harvard University subconscious bias tests are very revealing… there is not one on Hi-Fi… yet.
Possibly… I think it’s more involved than that… in what I was looking at the assessor was categorising a change, event, object or person… so there was definitely a change, it’s then how you value or interpret that change without objectivity. We like to say, including myself, trust your ears on this forum, but it is also a potentially flawed approach… there was another thread recently where I described what I do to try and counter and be mindful of my subconscious biases… partly based on some of the learning from these courses I have had.
The placebo effect is whether there is any change or not I think.
At this time of year in NZ (moving into winter), my system becomes somewhat ‘dulled’ by the electrical pollution in the neighbourhood. I’m guessing heat pumps are the main culprit.
The installation of the EE switch has definitely restored the sparkle. I don’t know what the effect will be like in summer, but this is a substantial improvement on my system. I cannot comment on what the effect may be on other systems or whether other switches may also be beneficial. However, it is definitely not a placebo effect. For me, that is a reasonable cost compared to the rest of my equipment.
well, good improvement on my side too (replacing a Netgear). Qobuz sounds better than ever, more clarity and I’m even turning the volume up! So definitely worth it (in my system, …).
Don’t you think it a little odd that the same themes/arguments emerge whenever there’s a discussion of items purported to improve digital replay? And from the same people (perhaps that bit’s not so odd), who, generally, have no intention of sampling (thought I’d use the term seeing as the topic has gone all “research-y“) any of the items under discussion.
It doesn’t tend to happen with anyone’s latest proposed acquisition of a 250Dr or a 552. On those occasions we’re swift to congratulate them and don’t doubt the sanity and good reasoning behind their, often very expensive, choice. We bond and celebrate our unity.
Yet, here we are, again, groundhogging the same issues. Why, for example, should caution apply to a switch on the basis that the system and environment in which it is to be used might actually make things worse? Of course that could apply to anything. In this thread, those who have tried an EE 8Switch and reported good things have been consistent in that their systems, networks and environments have all been completely inconsistent. Mass hysteria? Maybe. But at least we all seem to be enjoying better (delusional) sounds as a result.
How’s that summary coming along for that 8,000 long thread ? The summary that I recommended and which Richard subsequently endorsed and you agreed to produce.
In another thread now closed it was very interesting to observe how some people not only didn’t offer any indication of objective assessment, but in some cases dismissed the relevance - I seem to recall one even went as far as to dismiss the notion that they might be influenced by psychological effect… Of course for the individual that is perfectly fine, as what matters is what makes them happy, and if some factor like, for example, expectation bias, causes them to think their system sounds better and that makes them happy then fantastic!
However if someone is persuaded by such bias I do wonder if the effect is lasting, or if the longer term outcome might be difficulty in finding a system that is truly satisfying, prolonging the urge to keep trying to find a way to make it better.
If you had read the previous forum’s content on this subject you’d find that I did subjectively test a number of Ethernet cables. You’d also have found out that the results surprised me in that there was no significant correlation between my expected outcome and the result of the test; indeed, for instance, the cable that came out top I’d expected to come in the mid range and the cable I expected to come 2nd came out near the bottom.
Working from the positions of all the cables did however reveal one significant and completely unexpected result; and that’s the result I stick by. However I stick by that result for my system and in my environment only - if it were to move house or change system components I’d retest all the cables again (yes I kept them).
In fact when putting in a Cisco 2960 I did repeat the test (and added a new cable to the test suite), and I published these data as well. Again the same correlation was the only consistent factor (indeed, on looking at the results some other cables changed position). Due to a change in the system I had no expectation whether this correlation would be maintained or not - it happens that it was retained, but I have no reason to believe that if I make another change this correlation will be retained.
So in answer to to the accusation of goundhogging, well I do seem to be the one who has actually tested these theories in practice rather than expressing the results of expectation lead or group think lead processes. Other people may well have done so, but so far they have not given adequate explanation as to what controls they used or why they believe such biases have not come into play.
