My fancy has taken me to my previous comment. If there is a difference or reason, as Chord implies, what is it?
Hi Mike as you say there is far more to reducing noise coupling transformer that just the regular compliance isolatorsā¦It involves careful PCB tracks and placement of ferrite beads as well as decoupling caps. Your point on separation is spot on.
Either side of the compliance transformer should also be on a different and separate ground plane. The connections between the the PHYsical layer interface and transformer is where the decoupling network is importantā¦ including LC filters on the physical media interface component powerline.
The good thing is digital Audio streaming in the basic format we use in Hi-Fi uses rather established technology has been around for a couple of decades now and so is rather mature, certainly compared to things like DACs and DSP architecturesā¦ in essence most of our streaming uses standard web based protocols. A lot of these low noise methods are well understood and are part of the toolset for low noise design where such things are important, albeit not often implemented for consumer as it tends to push the production costs up slightlyā¦ and most consumers probably donāt notice the benefits.
For optimum low noise design, each transformer should be in its own decoupled ground plane.
The above copied from a TI guide on low noise Ethernet design for noise sensitive applications.
Thanks for the info Simon, it would be interesting to know how the Chord EE 8Switch (Bonn N8) is designed i.t.rā¦
Whatever my post was not intended to start another side discussion, as I said in my post, I was thinking a bit of separation might reduce cross talk, I have enough spare ports & Iāve done it 'cause I can.
I have done exactly the same Mike, it makes me feel better even if my cloth ears cannot tell the difference.
I agree, or at least what design considerations have been taken into account. From a casual view it doesnāt appear to be a low noise design or layoutā¦ so curious what it is they are focussing onā¦ it might be of course they are not focussing on reducing EM emissions, but simply reducing the sidebands in the symbol encoding clockā¦ in which case there may be a mk2 that adds low noise as well?
Perhaps the initial advantage of focussing on reducing the sidebands is that itās relatively simple and cheaper to doā¦ perhaps to gauge the market before investing more in a true low noise design as well. I certainly expect that would make a step forward in coupled noise reduction as well.
What are the main differences between the EE and a 2960?
I donāt know, because I canāt find any info on the EE of what it actually does and doesnāt doā¦ or any environmental specifications, other than standard consumer compliance ones that all electrical consumer products require.
From a switch perspective the EE looks like a basic layer 2 switch home network consumer device with limited capabilityā¦the 2960 is an advanced layer 2 configurable switch that you can optimise for best performance on your LAN.
But I guess most buying an EE are doing so not for its limited switching ability, but rather how it affects the sound on your streamer, but unfortunately there are no real detailsā¦ that I would expect from such a device. It appears entirely down to the user to suck it and see. Elsewhere from theIf name sakes stable we see white papers on high level architectures, approach to conversion, numbers of taps , and DSP noise shaping methods ā¦ all informative and supports what we hearā¦ but nothing on this switchā¦
My issue with pure suck it and see, is that the results given at a point in time, may change in the future with an environmental change, a streamer change, or streamer firmware change and one has no way of assessing the risk of this likelihood.
Wrong Chord Simon.
Ahh thanks for correctionā¦ now that explains thingsā¦
Thanks Simon
Yes, these are not bought as switches.
The name switches here is a euphemism/misnomer that covers up buyersā actual intention, which is sound shaping.
I think we should ācome outā and call them what they are - e.g.
Sonic shaper
Sound tuner
Sound booster
Cleaner
Purifier
Noise trap
Reclocker
Iām not averse to the existence of these things.
I have 3 switches, one of which I use as a switch, the other two are preprocessing the audio signals and associated EM noise.
Me neither, but I agree better to call out what it achieves by howā¦ albeit at a top levelā¦most donāt want involved details Iām sureā¦ but many people do appear to want to understand at a high level what they are experiencing.
Many are happy to plug and enjoy the different/better sound.
But I think most people on switch threads would like to know how these boxes work, and what techniques they are using to modify the sound in various ways.
Have a look at the Bonn N8, it looks like the same switch, it still doesnāt tell you much.
The Bonn N8 has been around for a while longer than the EE & looking at the pictures on various www its made in far east & I suspect a ābadgedā OEM package
PS: @Simon-in-Suffolk. I just found a more in depth review from Poland. https://soundrebels.com/silent-angel-bonn-n8-2/
An interesting read, but it still doesnāt tell you much about the design detail, other than the switch is designed & made by Thunder Data Co. Ltd. Zhuhai, China.
Drill down into the Thunder Data cmpy www & then into N8 & it does have more info, albeit with a liberal application of marketing hype
Thanks Mike, in which case it would appear not to be a low noise Ethernet design, but rather focussing on the symbol clock which is the key addition thereby reducing sidebands. I can also see mention of decoupling its click power supply from the rest of the board, which is good practice anyway. Not much if any mention of the switching performance for audio.
Curious about EM absorbing material in the caseā¦ if true low noise you would be designing the circuits / PCB to reduce noise emissions, and use a Faraday shield for those elements you canātā¦ so how is the clock board and itās tracks protected from these emissions.
So we might see a new switch shortly which combines a low sideband clock with low noise Ethernet network interfacing designā¦ it might also offer network group filteringā¦ but that might be plus version.
Certainly scope for a stream of incremental advancements for the well healed audiophile.
So then the question arises whether the Bonn is exactly the same product rebadged, or whether the different boxes have different parts or spec in any way.
Obviously the manufacturers know the differences between these boxes, and some switch designers must take apart competing switches to find out how they are designed in order to learn from them.
i.e. what happens in all areas of hifi design.
Maybe we should start a crowdfunded hifi information site to take apart pieces of kit and publish the facts!
If you look up The Chord Company Ltd at Companyās House they are listed as
- 46900 - Non-specialised wholesale trade
if you look that term up it is essentially a value add reseller of products, ie they buy wholesale OEM and repackage into consumer productsā¦ so it is highly likely others can do the same.
For reference if you look up Chord Electronics Ltd, they are:
- 26400 - Manufacture of consumer electronics
That is the same status of Naimā¦ that is they manufacture consumer electronic products.
I agree. I have a brace of 2960s, would I buy an audiophile switch?
My system sounds excellent as it is, I think i will scratch that itch in other ways.
Yes, those are different categories of organizations.
A company that orders rebadged boxes wholesale will sometimes just buy whatever the supplier already sells.
But in some cases the ordering firm will have one or more people working for them who are competent to specify bespoke products where not only the logo and colour or shape of the box is different, but it may have small or large substantial changes to how it operates.
Am convinced that 8switch does a great job at the price. I thought about this for a while, but when I saw that it was basically a Bonn, it felt strange to buy something with a modified exterior look. You can take lipstick on a pig, but itās still a pig. Since I like Ansuz, I went on their X-TC Powerswitch which I think sounds very good. And that it is developed and produced in Denmark does not make matters worse.
To be fair, the Ansuz is just using a network switch board that looks remarkably similar to the same board in a D-Link switch albeit with an internal linear supply and mounted in a nice box. A Pig wearing lipstick and an expensive dress if you like.