English Premier League or International (HiFi) - update at Half Time

Hi All,

WARNING: This post may contain poor humour with obscure football and other references meant in jest. Please read accordingly.

Thanks for all contributions so far. Looking at my first post now, in the cool evening light, I can see it might be a bit intimidating.

Who did/do you think I might be? Some overpaid ex professional England International player, long retired, who is active on social media all day whilst eating a well know brand of potato chips (crisps)?

I mean, there is no way on this planet that I can afford a Naim Statement pair (even without the preamp part). Except, perhaps if I sold my house and moved somewhere way cheaper. PS, Please donā€™t mention this to my dealer.

Anyway, I digress, the amplifier on the bottom right of the stack, (top of the list in the comparison chart) is the cheapest and also currently the best ā€¦ā€¦as it is the one I already own!

I still plan to complete some purchase(s) soon - I am currently in the negotiation phase.

Iā€™ll keep you postedā€¦ā€¦.

PS: What is this thing about being from Essex that @Wugged_Woy queried?

E of E

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I have been buying HiFi for more than 50 years. My criteria for choosing what to buy have never included the detailed technical specifications. Providing an item offers the required functionality, form and appearance, then the key criteria are what it sounds like and price. I have little interest in, or understanding of, the technical data.

Maybe I am atypical of members of this forum? But I am very keen on football and was born in Essex, so not unique!

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I wouldnā€™t say ā€œintimidatingā€, rather ā€œbizarreā€.

A very strange post for a first post, but welcome to the forum.

DGā€¦

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Thanks

Hi All viewers,

WARNING more bizarre stuff comingā€¦ā€¦ā€¦

Half time whistle has just blown and we will CUT to the studio to get the latest newsā€¦ā€¦

As @Wenger2015 observed, it is definitely game of two halves. But exactly how many (halves)? I mean there is the usual (see below)ā€¦.

But what about the view from the pitch? Inside half or outside half?ā€¦ā€¦ā€¦

Then, as this is an International tournament, there is (statistically) a high chance of extra time being required to determine the winner (PS, I hope it doesnā€™t go to penalties!).

So I may need to keep half of the equipment back on the bench, just in case.

Now, what can I use to safely and accurately cut polystyrene?

Is it one of theseā€¦ā€¦

or maybe even a BANDSAW.

What do the viewers think?

Hang on, I hope I have not tripped over the offside rule for talking about DIY modifications to audio equipment?

Perhaps the referee (@Richard.Dane) will get called to the touchline to look at the VAR.

All the best,

E of E

:flushed:

Hi @Guinnless,

I have the curse of being trained in electronics so I just Have To Know the pre match stats.

To answer your question, the following is my take on what parameters I consider important and why (others may have different views or even technical explanations)ā€¦.

ā€˜Output Signal to Noise Ratioā€™. This parameter is generally better if it has a larger value than a competing product. Why it is important is because this parameter mainly delivers the ā€˜inky blacknessā€™ that I have seen people talk about on the Naim forum.

You might notice in the chart the amplifier I currently own (ATI 4005) has the best Output Signal to Noise Ratio of those listed.

However, the previous parameter is equivalently important, the Output Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) plus Noise (N). In this case the smaller the number (if expressed as a percentage) the better. This parameter is fundamentally an expression of the amplifiers linearity. How important linearity is to the enjoyment of music is rather dependent on what is your preferred music. For orchestral classical music good linearity is required, for electronic rock less so.

You might notice in the chart the amplifier I currently own (ATI 4005) has the worst linearity of all those listed (who knows what is linearity of the Naim Statement ?). I would like to have an amplifier with better linearity.

The last parameter, called ā€˜damping factorā€™, is a single figure that tries to encapsulate the ability of the amplifier to accurately control the movement of the loudspeaker cone(s) or diaphragm(s). For this parameter, larger numbers are better, but in reality anything in the 100s and above is generally considered sufficient.
PS, there is a long article on Wikipedia regarding this if you are interested.
PPS: One of the original innovations of Naim products was to assume that all their amplifiers would be connected to loudspeakers by a least some cable, and so designed the output stages of those amplifiers to assume the presence of a cable (as a component of the Zobel network used to maximise power transfer to the loudspeaker and maintain amplifier stability when connected to reactive loads cf loudspeakers). This is the aspect of Naim amplifier design where the minimum cable length recommendations came from. The benefit was that the overall system performance (amp + cables + loudspeakers) and the associated net Damping Factor was better than designing an amp for a use case that would never happen in practice (I.e. amp + loudspeakers). Nevertheless, I once managed (by accident) to get a Naim integrated amplifier to go into high frequency oscillation and shutdown because I attached loudspeaker cables that were too short!

Perhaps, I will cover the remaining parameters in a future posting.

All the best.

E of E

Iā€™d just listen to each amp and pick the one that I enjoy the most. The one that makes you smile and engage and get lost in the music.
Anything else is just demo type behaviour where you are analysing the sound and not listening to music.

The stats you already have are incorrect unless you have measured them yourself.

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OK.
Thanks.

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OK @Neilb1906, I might stop soon!

But what would you use to safely and accurately cut through a peice of acoustic polystyrene? I would like anyoneā€™s advice here please.

E of E

Iā€™m getting Whitedragem deja vu here.

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Hi Edmund, I thought your post was rather amusing , but then I originate from Essex, support West Ham* and am just old enough to remember watching the 1966 world cup final on a black and white TV . I presumed the point of the ā€œthey think itā€™s all over,ā€¦ it is nowā€¦ā€ remark is that England (i.e. Naim) won your international hi fi match. Iā€™d also like to add my support to your suggestion for the very occasional international comparison, bearing in mind this is a Naim forum discussing Naim gear. On the international theme for a moment, I was auditioning the NSC 300 range a year or so ago and noticed the dealer also had a similarly priced T+A system set up which I had a brief listen to. For me it was no competition, Naim won hands down. *footnote: all football fans who saw the 66 world cup final will remember it was actually West Ham wot won the world cup - as they provided heart of the team; defence, attack, etc, namely Moore, Hurst & Peters. I trust this wonā€™t now start a football debate, as most of the previous posters in this thread indicated their apathy towards football.

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For someone focused on specifications there are some significant omissions, e.g intermodulation distortion, slew rate, rise time, maximum output current, and one key measurement that says a lot about capability, output power linearity (nothing itself to do with THD) - ideal is power doubling as you halve load impedance, something few amps come near to achieving.

Otherwise a couple of observations: Extremely low THD, upon which you seem to be focused, is academic, as my understanding is that the vast majority of speakers distort far more than even basic hifi amps. And I donā€™t believe low THD+noise is a good indication of linearity, though perhaps it depends on what aspect of performance you are considering - certainly not frequency or power linearity. And quoted damping factors alone can be misleading as it depend how measured - yes, high is theoretically best, but to be meaningful better to declare highest output impedance within a stated frequency band (bass being the critical area), to which you have to add the impedance of cables and resistance of connections before relating to speaker impedance.

But whilst specs/measurements are potential tools in shortlisting, whether all specs or focussing on ones you believe to be key (combined with price, any info on reliability, and if important to you appearance and power consumption), auditioning can make all the difference - it is possible you might prefer the sound of the lesser specā€™d one!

I know nothing about football other than it is about kicking balls (unless you are American, or talking about the strangely named Rugby Football), but surely there is a good analogy here: you could probably list desirable specs for a footballer, maybe running speed, agility in turning, size and shape of feet (?), length of legs, height, eyesight, accuracy of target perception, accuracy of distance perception, accuracy of kicking etc - but conceivably of two even identical players, one may just have an unmeasurable flair the other doesnā€™t and performs better.

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Acoustic or not, if expanded or extruded PS rather than solid, a hot wire, or a very sharp knife, or a very fine toothed saw, or even a fine toothed bread knife. These days probably better by laserā€¦

Hi @DaveSpart,

Very many thanks for your post - I am pleased that at least one person got the joke and implied reference to the result.
I am not quite old enough to be certain of my memory of 1966, however I do know (from pointed discussion between my parents over the subsequent years) that me and my sister were on holiday with them in Cornwall.

Anyway the discussion between my parents of this event was always how we as a family needed to get back to the accommodation so that me and my sister ā€œcould ā€™ave us teaā€ (we are originally from the North West). The discussion would then move onto the fact that my Dad had been listening on the portable radio and did not want to leave until the football match was concluded.

My Mum overruled my Dad and so we set off back to the accommodation. On the way my Dad saw a crowd of people with their noses pressed to a shop window (maybe it was Radio Rentals?) watching a blurry black and white television. He joined this small group, whilst my mum was completely focussed on wanting to get back to feed me and my younger sister.

In that moment, in some town in Cornwall, within our family, only my Dad recognised the significance of that moment of history being created!

Never again to be repeated in our lifetimes (yet) :cry:.

All the best.

E of E