English Premier or International (HiFi) - Tournament Preparations Begin

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi @Innocent_Bystander and @Protegimus ,

Very many thanks for the suggestions. I have been using the method of ‘masked’ and partially ‘randomised’ listening tests with some success since 2024 when changeovers are effected by me not being in the room and are done via electronic control via the Linn manager or Magico sub bass controller.

The most recent listening trials over Christmas (Chord DAVE DAC vs Linn Organik DAC) were more involved and when changing XLR cables the candidate listeners were required to leave the room for maybe 60 seconds (or less) between listens. For that trial I was able to have listeners select several different tracks (typically three) to experience each setting.

Following your considered contributions of …

@Innocent_Bystander

possibly requiring more repeats and thus a disproportionate extension of session time

and …

@Protegimus

but perhaps listening to the cables over an extended period, then rotating them for an equivalent duration before finally switching back to the original candidate might offer a better understanding of how it performs in your system

I am beginning to worry that the volunteers may get fed up with the whole process!

Perhaps this listening test method will just not be reliable for the loudspeaker cable selection?

In a way, it was all meant to be a bit of joke (hence the continuous references to football and World Cup) - but with some serious science involved.

I started this journey partly because I was fed up of being overcharged for HiFi cables.

Nevertheless I actually do believe there is an optimum loudspeaker cable for each system.
My other thread (the Audio Grade Solder one) described some of what I was thinking - and although there are data errors in the draft versions of the cable spreadsheets - nevertheless I actually think I have nailed it now!

The objective is to achieve a ‘critically damped transient response’ , ideally in acoustic pressure at the listening position (which needs a correctly damped listening room).

A simple target is correspondingly a ‘critically damped transient response’ in the electrical Current provided by the amplifier at the loudspeaker terminals (Edit: or should that be the amplifier terminals?). The good thing is that this objective can be evaluated by modelling the amplifier, cable and loudspeaker as a sub-system.

I do hope we can continue our discussion here - it may take a few weird twists and turns - but hopefully will be entertaining. As a starter, how about a ‘snip picture’ of some of the REW measurements captured last month.
Hint: For a description of what is being tested - look closely at text in left column.

More pics of actual equipment in use and being tested to follow…

[Innocent_Bystander]

Hi EoE, to me this is a fascinating and very worthwhile project. I believe that any difference we hear should be measurable by acoustic monitors, and, relevant to this thread, and at least in the case of passive items like cables, by measurement of electrical characteristics. If they aren’t, then it begs the question as to whether the audible differences are actually real or imagined, hence the critical need for blind testing*, and if genuinely audible then the question as to whether the right parameters are being measured, and with adequate sensitivity.

Beyond that, correlating measured electrical characteristics with audible effect clearly would have benefits in the selection of cables, and indeed in their design.

What I am saying is that to my mind this project well worth doing, albeit that it is not an easy task.

With speaker cables, do people need to leave the room if you have them all lying in place and a non-trial-participant just changing which is connected, if necessary placing some form of screen to obscure the cable end s from the listeners?

[Protegimus]

While I fully appreciate what you are saying (level playing field) in terms of a direct comparison, I think that you can not so easily discount any effect. The reason is that what you will live with comes after the ‘settling time’, not your initial impression. Initial impressions, rapid judgements can be very misleading.

[Innocent_Bystander]

Provided that the listeners are not themselves accustomed to any of the cables I can’t see how any subsequent accustomisation can be relevant when doing a direct comparison: What is being determined is preference at the time - any accustoming after that will not negate differences.

(For reference, in my 50+ year hifi journey I never bought gear that at the time of buying I liked the sound of and subsequently came to dislike, while anything I have disliked I have not bought.)

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi @Innocent_Bystander and @Protegimus ,

Thanks for keeping with this discussion. I anticipate at least four more postings from me.

It is best practice to require some form of listening tests using ‘masking’ and ‘randomisation’ to establish persuading evidence. However it is clearly getting quite tricky and even the question …

@Innocent_Bystander

With speaker cables, do people need to leave the room if you have them all lying in place and a non-trial-participant just changing which is connected, if necessary placing some form of screen to obscure the cable end s from the listeners?

I feel needs the answer: YES
As the listening candidates should not know the nature of the evaluation.
IMO, even seeing a ‘screen’ would be problematic.

Anyway, I promised some pictures, how about the one you have all been waiting for ..
A view from the stadium:

And a closeup view from the touchline…

And what about this, the amateur squad?..

Please give me some questions as this last picture is more special than it might first seem.

[Innocent_Bystander]

The white cable looks nearly as rigid as the copper tube (the latter appeals to me!). Are the others equally stiff? The cables will be clearly visible to listeners - options are to have all in place so there is no visible difference, or wrap all in some sort of identical outer covering.

[Edmund-of-Essex]

Hi @Innocent_Bystander

Are you aware that the ‘white cable’ is NAIM NAC A5?
I understand that the copper tube is appealing to you, may I ask why?
As a potential purchaser of HiFi (loudspeaker) cable what is important?

Is it the finished product colour?
Is it the finished product ‘price’?
Is it the finished product performance (c.f. ‘sound’) when installed in the system at home?

Furthermore, is it important to have something ‘special’ about the purchased product, and if so, what?

Is it the materials used in the product? Is it the ‘geometry’ of the design of the conductors (or perhaps the insulation)?
Is it the electrical (or even mechanical) characteristics / parameters of the finished product?
Is it the use of special materials science in the manufacture of the conductors or insulation in the cable or perhaps the connectors?

Etc, etc…

FYI I think I have ‘designed’ an almost perfect ‘substitute’ to Naim NAC A5.

Using some of the marketing style that is often seen in the promotion of HiFi products I hope to promote this new loudspeaker cable.

I hope you’ll enjoy what may follow.

[Skeptikal]

[GeoffC]

When I was about 9 years old, a game of football after school turned into a dog chase as it had decided to run off with my jumper!

Regards
Ge-off (topic)