I agree with you and @litemotiv that it all gets very partisan. Hamilton (who’s known to be a very aggressive driver) can do no wrong? Verstappen is just a spoilt brat? Lewis celebrating after (accidentally) putting Verstappen in hospital is fine, Verstappen not checking on Hamilton who’s obviously okay as he’s trying to manouvre the car is not?
On that particular topic, he was doing that while Verstappen was in the process of trying to climb out of his car which was on top and as such would have dropped / slid off. What if he had succeeded? Could have seriously hurt Verstappen there. Looks to me like neither showed the most sportman like behaviour / was necessarily very concerned with the others safety.
In case anyone’s interested, my personal view is that this was a racing incident with neither predominantly to blame. Most (ex) F1 drivers and/or journalists who’s comments I’ve read seem to hold a similar view. But I accept it’s not up to them but the stewards, who ruled differently.
But as I raised before, I think the penalties given need review. Hamilton got 10 seconds penalty on a track he would normally cruise home on with 30-60seconds on his closest competitor, so he still managed to win. Verstappen gets a grid penalty for the next race.
And Masi has actually confirmed that Verstappen would have also gotten a time penalty if he had still been able to continue the race. On this track that would have likely made him drop 4-6 places, so the 3 place grid penalty perhaps isn’t even that bad…
Why not always make it grid penalty for the next race, or even better, a grid/places penalty for the finish of the current one? I.e. you drop down 3 places from where you finish instead of X seconds.
I am team GB but not a fan of LH but do admire what he has achieved and he really is a class driver all the way through his career. I am a big Honey B fan and great to see another win for him, such a refreshing sight to see that huge toothy grin and openness again. Hats off and lets hope more of the same. I am also a fan of the Hulk and think it is criminal in he is not in an F1 seat.
As to what happened yday, I would expect that at a clubbie FFord race. At no point did MV have his wheels anywhere near even level let alone in front. My opinion is he should have bailed at that corner earlier and had another go later. The fact he did not have control of the car and hit the sausage kerbs that launched him shows he was in no way going to make that move stick on a corner like that. Social media (global, not just UK based) is not being kind to MV about this incident and my 2p is rightly so.
I thought that was very poor behaviour from Max - just walked past LH’s car, which he had just landed on, and LH wasn’t emerging from.
I quick check on LH, would of been sportsmanship behaviour, after all he could of snapped the man’s neck.
Hamilton was trying to reverse out, and had been trying to do so while Verstappen was still in his and shortly after climbing out. So it doesn’t seem Hamilton cared that much whether Verstappen was okay (either). What if Verstappen had been injured and his car suddenly fell to the ground, or when he was getting out the car it would have fallen/slid on top of him as Hamilton drove out from under it?
I would say neither showed their best self, but at least to Verstappens defense you could say he could assume Hamilton was okay because he was trying to get the car out. Hamilton has no such excuse, but as I said neither behaved particular well there.
The last para of your post wouldn’t work in practical terms where there were material gaps between the cars. The issue is a time penalty during a race (which fits whatever crime was committed) not simply a demotion of places. And imposing penalties at the following race wouldn’t be logical - that could create all manner of unwelcome behaviours.
And I wouldn’t assume (I don’t think you do?) everyone sides with LH through partisanship. That simply isn’t the case - I just want to see fair racing.
The issue with potentially dangerous events is that 2 elite drivers should be able to manage themselves through the vast numbers of corners and scenarios they face – and not to do so suggests that there is some behaviour by one/both of them that is creating endangerment for themselves/the other driver involved.
There is plentiful evidence that MV pushes things and doesn’t cede corners (or even along straights via weaving), when a more mature driver playing the longer game does. We all know the current cars are really too big for many of the tracks/corners and the speed deltas between the cars are so tight that overtaking is at a premium.
Once again, the highly experienced stewards made their call i.e. that this wasn’t a racing incident – and as others have said here, MV had more than one opportunity to back out but he didn’t. That corner (the 2nd turn left) is designed to penalise anyone who tries to overtake on the inside - the fat kerbs are there by design. The whole construct screams at a driver to not put his car there.
As an Austrian I have plenty of well-justified dislike of RB! Probably even Max will become a nicer guy once he’s out of that environment, like Seb did
Not sure I fully follow. A penalty at the following race is what was awarded this time. And why wouldn’t a demotion of places at the finish work? That’s what the current time penalties achieve, but would be more consistent in actual practice.
Regarding the incident, the stewards indeed decided differently, but as mentioned plenty, including many (most?) f1 drivers, share my view and believed it a racing incident as well. Verstappen could have taken the escape road, Hamilton could have left more room. Neither budged. As Jan Lammers said: “They were duking it out to be the toughest guy in the gravel trap”
But I can live with the decision, my main complaint is the inconsistency of the penalties (how they work out in practice). And that’s despite it working in Verstappens favour this time.
Re the imposition and nature of the penalty (time v places), with most incidents, the critical judgement is what advantage did the offending driver gain/how serious in relative terms was the nature of the offence (noting the stewards don’t assess penalties on outcome just the offence - as was much debated at Copse).
So in a spread out race where one car is a minute or so ahead of others (e.g. MV at Zandvoort), if MV were to have committed an offence, how would it have been fair to relegate him places - that would have been a massive relative penalty. Matters have to be managed in a consistent and relative way. In this latest incident, the steward’s obviously assessed MV’s action as ‘poor driving’, hence the points on his licence too. I can only guess they took the view that, by his actions, MV could really only go ‘off track’ (hit the penal sausage kerbs), as he was trying to make 2 cars go where only one can normally go, noting how poor the steering locks on these larger cars are nowadays. Bullying someone in a corner to give up position is one thing but to do this you have to be alongside and MV wasn’t in the context of the turn-in point to that chicane…but he still pressed ahead and didn’t bail-out as he could have done.
Expressed another way, the word 'risk, is defined as ‘uncertainty of outcome’ and by acting how he did (entering the first phase of the corner and not ceding, then not using the bail out when it was clear space was tight), this left MV staring at the very large kerbs and we know it’s very difficult to predict how F1 cars react on these kerbs (e.g. severely unbalance the car/rip the undertray), especially on turn-in, hence why they are used as a deterrent.
Obviously, as MV didn’t finish the race, the penalty can only be served at the next race.
If the stewards didn’t penalise this behaviour, it would create open season in trying to overtake in to chicanes and other corners, with much elevated levels of danger.
…and had the roles been reversed here, you can bet Red Bull would have been very, very, unhappy.
I think you misunderstood my post. I have no issue with the 3 grid places for Verstappen. After all he was found guilty by the stewards (that I and many others disagree is not that relevant), and I do not think it’s a harsh punishment considering the verdict either. And as he was out of the race they obviously have to be applied to the next race.
What I have an issue with is more the time penalties, which are either 5 or 10 seconds at the moment. And we have races/cars where even 10 seconds isn’t much of a penalty, for example Hamilton at Silverstone (let’s not rehash why he got it, I’m just using it as an example). And races like Monza, where even 5 seconds will drop you down the order multiple places. 10 seconds here would have been way harsher than 3 grid places, which Masi has confirmed he would have gotten had he remained in the race. But at about half the races this year it wouldn’t even have made the winner drop a single place, at most not more than 1. Only Monza, Azerbaijan & Belgium are exceptions really, and two of those because of incidents/safety cars compacting the field.
My suggestion to make it fairer/more consistent was to always make it grid places. If you’re still in the race, applied at the finish, if you’re out, at the next race. They severity can determine the amount of places.
Time penalties are after all also often applied at the finish. (Not sure what happens if you go out after receiving it, but I assume something at the next race, so that could be handled the same with a grid penalty) So an alternative could be to make the time penalties more flexible, where the stewards can choose any number of seconds depending on the car, race, severity etc.
Correct me if I’m wrong didn’t LH say a while back I’m not going to give way any more meaning if he sees a potential crash he will let it happen rather than thinking about the Championship. Max has always been like Schumacher before him with the mantra I’m coming through whether you like it or not. Drivers therefore know they either allow him to make the move or crash. After all isn’t that what they are trading on the intimidation factor. Don’t forget Danny Ric left Red Bull because he couldn’t stand them favouring Max who was more crash prone in those days. I too was pleased to Daniel win although I suspect Lando would like to have had a crack!
I’ve been following F1 for more years than I would like to admit.
What is clear is that a lot of drivers would sell their Mothers into slavery for an extra Championship point.
Thought DR deserved and earned the win, he was on the front row, he had taken the lead and had no issues with his car. Lando showed great respect for team orders (and Danny) unlike like a few others without mentioning names. Lando’s young and hopefully his time will come.
The rumour mill is speculating on Verstappen taking a forth engine in Sochi.
Its almost impossible for his car to finish 2021 with just the allowed three engines.
Taking a fourth will automatically incur a start from the back of the grid penalty.
But as the forth engine unavoidable sometime this season, taking it at Sochi will avoid the Monza 3-place grid position penalty.
What’s the forums opinion on the need for FIA to look at a possible rule change ??
The rules say a grid penalty is “given for the next race”.
And please note, other teams have used the same loophole
I think the engine rules are much too convoluted. A racing team should be able to prepare optimally and safely for a race without weird penalties. Only allowing 3 engines per season is stupid when sometimes cars get wrecked by collisions beyond their control.
Good point on accident damaged engines.
But keep in mind the three engine limit was part of a larger set of changes bought in to reduce or limit the cost of F1 & to level the playing field to help the less well financed teams.
Probably should exclude engines damaged during a crash. After the non race that was the race I really don’t understand any of the rules, if I spent time worrying about them I probably wouldn’t be bothered watching.
F1 has long been a mickey mouse ‘sport’ with arcane artificialities to try and create a semblance of ‘excitement’. Mandatory re-fuelling, mandatory tyre change, DRS, ‘sprint race qualifying’, joke penalties, tyre-preservation driving, team orders etc etc
I don’t consider F1 as a ‘sport’, for me its a competition for ground breaking engineering excellence .
But if you’re not interested in F1, why on earth have you bothered to post?
I didn’t say I wasn’t interested, I was merely commenting on the arbitrary nature of many facets of F1. You’re right in that it’s partly about engineering excellence but also an awful lot about marketing, image, indulgence and privilege. Not that there’s necesarily anything wrong about that either…