I have a general question about streamer firmware:
I stream using a ND5XS2 and use it to ‘feed’ an external DAC via coax.
In theory, do streamer firmware updates affect the output/sound of the streamer section of the ND5XS2?
Many thanks
Paul
That is a tricky question. When I bought my ND5XS2, I never realized that firmware updates could affect sound. But it definitely does. But I think the general consensus is that it should not be the case when an external DAC is used. I don’t have experience with an external DAC, so don’t take my word for it.
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Thanks @whatu1tme2b , I’m assuming the firmware has a bigger influence on the DAC portion of the streamer, but I don’t know.
I suppose another way of asking my question is ‘can the firmware influence the sound signature of the streaming component of the ND5XS2?’
I’m hoping folk who know a lot more than me can chip in, I’m just interested in how this stuff hangs together.
It’s the other way round… the code for the dsp and beyond hasn’t changed for years. The impact is from the ARM processor on the streaming board and ground plane as I understand it.
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In our experience firmware can affect naim streamers used as digital transport only.
3.10 was not good on our NDX2.
We wish the answer was no, obviously.
The latest firmware is very good.
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I think @Richard.Dane put it very well in one of the FW threads: Anything changes everything I think was his statement. Whether it’s audible every time is another matter, but I wouldn’t rule anything out.
I find it really interesting to experience, but one can run into unpleasant surprises in this journey (3.10 is a notorious example…)
For what it’s worth: latest firmware (I can only speak for 3.13) sounds very nice in my set up. I think the folks at Naim have done a great job with it.
I use Audirvāna Linux Core Player for streaming music on an old Dell laptop. In my experience my ND5 XS 2 (functioning as a kind of digital hub receiving input from the TV, CD player and Audirvāna laptop or through Connect and Cast functionality) really benefits from letting the Dell laptop taking care of great deal of the DSP. With the latest firmware it sounds really great. So on topic: does the sound change with new firmware? Yes, not by much every time but most of the times significant enough to be audible in my ears.
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No scientific tests have been carried out.
It is simply a matter of the various participants’ own perceptions.
So it is not easy to claim that firmware can change the sound of a device.
Oh dear. Let’s not go down that particular cul de sac.
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It’s « cul de sac » 
And yes, understood 
Yes, thanks. Auto-correct strikes again.
Yes they do in short
The firmware affects the digital streamer - not the analogue stages, so is responsible for creating the digital and analogue audio. Some mistakenly think it only affects the Streamer’s internal DAC section - and that’s clearly not the case - and it would be rather impressive if one found a way to do that 
I hear differences and I use an external DAC…
But Naim have improved the consistencies recently so I wouldn’t fret over it.
Any differences are usually very subtle and within a couple of weeks I find it generally becomes your new norm.
The streamer is effectively a small computer that processes and controls the different digital audio streams along with its front end streaming module. and the output of the streamer computer then creates a stream for digital reconstruction (internal DAC and DSP) or creates a stream encapsulated in SPDIF (also via the DSP sub system) for external transmission.
The firmware is what the computer(s) generally run, and it is the computers that are tuned in terms of code execution timing so as to shape the underlying processing noise/perturbations created by those computers and their ancillaries.
The DSP algorithm for internal analogue reconstruction (oversampling and low pass filtering) has not changed since the NDAC days I understand - and is executed within a specialised signal processor chip called a SHARC made by Analog Devices. I think I am correct in understanding the DSD processing has changed since back then.
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The 1st gen. streamers had a two stage update process which included a DSP update. How often Naim actually updated it I wouldn’t know, but sometimes I recall that stage taking longer than others so presumably some changes were made.
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I have been streaming for over twelve years now. Firstly with a Logitech squeezebox, adding an Audiostore Vortexbox server, then a NACn272. the Logitech device had over 120 firmware releases available at one time, and version 27 was reckoned to be the best for SQ. I swapped the Vortexbox for an Innuos Zen and finally the NACn272 was replaced by an NSS333. All of these devices had embedded software updates and sound quality differences occurred. This is not specific to Naim.
My advice is to follow the forum threads about firmware updates and make the update only when you are satisfied with what other people are saying about sound quality of the latest release.
As well as sound quality differences, there have been bugs in functionality that can be annoying. That is another reason to check the forum before updating. Naim have been better at maintaining all the streamer services than others in my opinion.
The technology of streaming is still maturing, I think Naim have learnt some good lessons in the run up to the 3.13 and 5.4 releases. Nowadays streaming is my main source on the basis of sound quality improvements that have jumped ahead of my old CD player (now sold on).
The Innuos Zen has no internal DAC, but I have used it with Chord Qutest and did find there were small differences between one release and the next, less so since their Sense 3 release. I don’t find Naim have created bigger sound quality changes (for the kit I have experienced) than Innuos, good or bad.
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The old source first adage still applies, if the speakers are too revealing you will find yourself addicted to swapping ethernet cables, signal cables and power leads to try to calm things down each time a new firmware release comes out.
Yes however as I said the DSP algorithms in terms of the SHARC c code/operands is essentially if not exactly the same as the NDAC. I am not sure how you would mitigate SHARC internal processing noise other than by chaining the processor which would note be a firmware change !!
Out of curiosity I asked Naim support the same question (“Do streamer firmware updates affect the output/sound of the streamer section of the ND5XS2?”).
I’ve just had a reply.
”No, streamer firmware updates do not alter the digital sound profile or make changes to the Digital Signal Processing for your unit.
When you use the as a digital transport feeding an external DAC via a coaxial cable, its job is simply to output a bit-perfect, unaltered digital audio stream. Our firmware updates focus on improving system stability, streaming platform compatibility (such as updates for Spotify, TIDAL, or Qobuz), network connectivity, and general bug fixes. “
I’m now officially confused.
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Naim are obviously spot on and are echoing what some even in this thread have tried to convey .. the same is with analogue audio as with digital audio… and that as what I and others have said and attempted to convey and illustrate - the filtering processing profile has not changed since the days of the NDAC… however the processors for streams, online streaming, cloud services etc - definitely has… and this is what nearly always is affected in software changes and the processor execution timing and noise signature.
However in sample stream data there are three variables(well strictly its two variables - sample bit value and time) - True, False, and Time
The True and Fslses stay consistent in bit perfect setups. Time however is analogue and creates the bit stream. Any noise from EMF, ground planes, power supplies you name it - can modulate the time clock - ie it will modulate the time phase and creates noise power.
On connected systems this phase can affect the audio = whether analogue or digital = (obviously) and this is what you may notice.
Yes connected systems can quantise the time to a large extent - but this quantisation process can leave its own signature on EMF, ground planes and power lines - in ever decreasing amounts. This is standard closed system modelling - so exists everywhere… not just in consumer hifi
This has been said numerous times before over the last 15 years or so - as well as explained - I do wish the forum had a better search system.
There are also descriptions internally in closed user groups for Naim testers but one can’t share that here. (of what the firmware tuning does)
I guess it’s all quite obvious really when you think about it - you just need to remember that digital data bit streams are about 1,0,t and then the mystical mists start to clear … (and hopefully your confusion …) 
and not as some people errantly think that its just 1,0 (just think how many times you have heard people making a fool of themselves by saying “it’s just 1 and 0s”) …
Now you might be thinking of data files - they dont have time - well they kind of have an implied time but they are static sequences - but to use it to create audio you would need to add t , ie create a bit (or equivalent) stream and we are back to where we were.
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On my setup, with N5xs2 feeding nDAC/XPS via Dc1 cable, all firmware changes produced significant effects in sound, on par with observations for the standalone streamers. Very happy now on .13 software, not so much on older 3.10, much better on 3.12. Even app tweaks/webclient produced results. And it’s not placebo, i have organized multiple sessions with friends (non-Naim users, not reading the forum, etc) asking them to note the differences and all of them were spot on!
So, for me, in my setup, the issue has been amswered for a long time: yes, firmware changes do alter the overall sound even if using the box as streamer-only. Ymmv …
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