HowTo: Roonify non-Roon streamers (lms-to-uPnP)

Streaming Audio
21

Hi

Thanks for info, currently reading phillipe44 thread for further background.

Any ideas why Roon not playing to endpoints although histogram graphic running but no movement on timeline.

Cheers

CK

22

Hi @Ceexkay
Here are a couple of things to check.

Are you running the binary with “static” in the name? This means all the dependencies are compiled in.

Have you turned on LMS compatibility in the Roon interface?

Did you remove or edit the codecs line in the config?

Are you in Passthrough mode and it appears in the general section?

Hope this helps, let me know how you get on!

23

HI @Weta
I checked all the above and everything was fine.
Problem was simple typo - config.xlm instead of config.xml. So it wasn’t reading the file!!

I put it down to too many years using Excel:grinning:

So sound now coming through loud and clear.

Thanks for your help here. Now just need to get file running on NAS as a more permanent solution.

Cheers

CK

1 Like
24

Hi @Weta

I was going to have a go at this to see how it works. The documentation says that gapless playback is not supported, did you find a way around it?

Also, how do I find out what UUID of my devices are? I can get the MAC address from my router, but I don’t see UUID anywhere.

Thanks

25

The plugin creates and assigns a UUID to your device its nothing you can see outside of the XML config file for the lms-to-upnp plugin.

26

Hi @wilro15,
Yes as per @CrystalGipsy, the config file will be written when passing the i flag, and as long as your steamer is turned on it should add the relevant details including the UUID. For gapless playback, I did have it working (I think it was PFs The Wall?), but it varies according to content and settings I think. I have “raw” as the output, I think it is pcm in reality. If the source content is all the same (bitrate,freq and codec), then I think Roon sends an unbroken stream and gapless works, so some albums seem to work, others don’t , it’s a little beyond me technically if I’m honest, but I hope that helps.

27

Hi @wilro15
I just want to follow up on this, I’ve done some testing this morning.
I have Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon album as:
A ripped CD - series of individual flac files,
A ripped CD - series of individual Wav files,
as well as DSD128 individual files.

The CD versions is genuinely gapless with no distinction between track boundries, but the odd hiccup on Flac transitions which i put down to network.
The DSD version needs resampling for my ND5 XS. I process this file on the Roon server at 6.9x, so plenty of cpu. At the track boundry I hear a noticeable but quiet “pfft” about 1/5 the volume of dropping a needle on a record. But i’d still call it gapless.

28

Just incase anyone reading this feels unable to complete the installation of the ‘lms-to-uPnP’ on a device, it is possible to purchase, pre-installed and pre-configured on a small device, which provide the Sonore UPnP bridge, in a consumer managed fashion at https://www.smallgreencomputer.com/collections/accessories/products/upnpbridge?variant=6964135395362

I have been using the Bridge for over a year to be able to ‘Roonify’ my NDS, and no looking back to a UPnP server and the Naim App.

29

Unfortunately I have to give a contrary viewpoint to you @simon.pepper

I’ve been using Sonore UPnP Bridge for the last couple of weeks on some different hardware and have had lots of problems. Here are some:

  • Volume will periodically reset to 100% on my 272. It seems to happen after some settings change in Roon.
  • If I press too many buttons too quickly in Roon iOS app, the Bridge goes nuts and causes Roon to continuously skip through tracks with no audio. The only solution is to restart the Bridge.
  • Last track on a ripped CD album gets stopped abruptly before the end.
  • Stop button doesn’t work - goes to next track instead!
  • After pausing, change input on 272, it will often switch back to Roon and continue playing from next track (similar to Stop issue). On occassions it makes it impossible to stop music - not WAF friendly at all.

My system is in the living room and is used by everyone for music, TV, games, etc. so it needs to be easy to work without the risk of 100% volume etc.

The Sonore UPnP Bridge (and LMS-to-UPnP) is a great idea but, at this point in time, is poorly executed. The powers that be at Sonore seem to think all of the above is acceptable. Regular crashes and reboots are OK. Not for me. With a high end hi-fi incorportating Naim, Roon, Qobuz, etc I expect everything to work flawlessly.

The Bridge is a hack. Sonore admit it will stay in beta for ever because they don’t have the resources to test all scenarios like mine.

I’m going back to a Raspberry Pi based system (Allo DigiOne Signature) which I have tried previously.

Good luck to everyone with the Bridge approach!

30

Squeeze2upnp is workung and it is great. I now can use Roon with my „old“ NDX. NAS, Tidal, Qobuz… all in one place. Up to 192.000!
Thank you so much @Weta
Only Tidal MQA is not working jet.

Wolfgang

Ps: @Weta: the line sample rate is twice in your config

31

AAA[quote=“wilro15, post:29, topic:751, full:true”]
Unfortunately I have to give a contrary viewpoint to you @simon.pepper

I’ve been using Sonore UPnP Bridge for the last couple of weeks on some different hardware and have had lots of problems. Here are some:

  • Volume will periodically reset to 100% on my 272. It seems to happen after some settings change in Roon.

I haven’t experienced this, as with an NDS it has fixed output levels, and volume control is via my Amplifier chain, with system automation provided a single IR remote solution.

  • If I press too many buttons too quickly in Roon iOS app, the Bridge goes nuts and causes Roon to continuously skip through tracks with no audio. The only solution is to restart the Bridge.

Haven’t experienced that, as I add tracks to a playlist/queue in Roon and let Roon control what is presented.

  • Last track on a ripped CD album gets stopped abruptly before the end.

Haven’t experience this - have plenty of ripped CD albums, using dBPoweramp.

  • Stop button doesn’t work - goes to next track instead!

You need to control the Roon stream, press paused/‘clear queue’ in Roon & not for the Naim player. With the UPnP Bridge and Roon, the stream is being pushed to the Network player, it is not pulling/requesting files as with UPnP, so you have to stop the stream before trying to change inputs. But use it as a Roon Endpoint as there is no issue, as I don’t have any other streaming inputs to the NDS. The preamp does, so these are controlled at a layer above the Network player level.

  • After pausing, change input on 272, it will often switch back to Roon and continue playing from next track (similar to Stop issue). On occassions it makes it impossible to stop music - not WAF friendly at all.

Same problem as above - streaming to a Network player is different to a Streaming preamp.

  • My system is in the living room and is used by everyone for music, TV, games, etc. so it needs to be easy to work without the risk of 100% volume etc.

Don’t know what to recommend, a B&O system or Sonus?

  • The Sonore UPnP Bridge (and LMS-to-UPnP) is a great idea but, at this point in time, is poorly executed. The powers that be at Sonore seem to think all of the above is acceptable. Regular crashes and reboots are OK. Not for me. With a high end hi-fi incorportating Naim, Roon, Qobuz, etc I expect everything to work flawlessly.

It is the range of available UPnP endpoints is Sonore’s problem, if it was just Naim they could contain the support requirement, but it is Linn, Cambridge Audio, NAD, to name just 3 other complicated technology ranges to be supported.

  • The Bridge is a hack. Sonore admit it will stay in beta for ever because they don’t have the resources to test all scenarios like mine.

See above.

  • I’m going back to a Raspberry Pi based system (Allo DigiOne Signature) which I have tried previously.

Sure, but I don’t like the fact that this involves a conversion to S/PDIF, with all those problems.
I have a USB output from the Ultra Rendu, with a XMOS based converter and the SQ is nothing like the packet based input to the Ethernet input.

  • Good luck to everyone with the Bridge approach!

Thank you - it works for me, with a NDS over a 272.

[/quote]

32

Now Tidal MQA is working to

33

Hi @Wolfgang,
Yes it’s there twice, I want the default for all devices to be 48khz, but specifically override it in the default section for the ND5 XS.

34

Hi @wilro15
I always use the Roon app rather than switch between the Naim app / Roon app and don’t see the same issues. Also never had the last track cutoff issue you have seen. But I agree as with most bolt-ons it’s not perfect.
It delivers on the primary requirement and allows people to use Roon and decide if they like it with the older hardware.
I think it is clear you want a no compromise approach with a low barrier for use. To my mind, you are looking for a preamp with Roon built in, where the integration solves most of what you are seeing. I would upgrade when you can or when something is available. The oft requested 372 maybe ???

35

If you like framed audio on Ethernet, then you should be fine with SPDIF frames… at a media level they have certain similarities… other than Ethernet based TCP is connection oriented, whilst SPDIF is connectionless …
As with all transports however, the transport clock and signal quality comes into play with coupled noise… so with SPDIF it really pays to have a good quality source… just like Ethernet benefits from a good quality switchport.
Your issues with that ‘bridge’ product sound awful… I guess that draws into sharp focus the benefits of the new gen streamers with their native 32 bit RAAT support.

36

Thanks for the detailed point by point response. Very thorough.

There is no need for that kind of language. I’ll stick with Naim thanks.

I’m merely trying to be useful to other people that might come along here later. As good as the Bridge is for you it might not work for everyone.

37

Not seeing this option, what’s it called please?

I am seeing a disconnection whilst idle for a few hours and this may help. I am running LMS on another device with the plugin enabled.

Thanks

38

It’s in the settings for the endpoint . Player discover options enter in the ip address of Roon core. Or you can changed player is enabled as that automaticaly connects to LMS. Having LMS running as well is not really advised as it can cause confusion for the endpoints,

39

If you want to improve USB to spdif conversion I can highly recommend the Audiophilleo 2 + PurePower Mk 2. It hangs off my nDAC with a BNC to BNC coupler. I power the PurePower off my nDAC rear USB input. It draws power only when it’s internal battery needs charging, which with 15 hours capacity should not affect normal listening. If there is no USB on the 272 you will need a separate USB charger. The AP2 + PP costs £1k or $1k.

I use a Innuos Zenith which provides the best SQ I have ever heard and much much better than CDX2 as a transport with DC1. As Simon says having really low jitter on the spdif source makes a big difference. It then becomes on a par with the best uPnP source + DAC. Because the Innuos boxes constantly push a null data stream to the USB device I need to disconnect to initiate normal charging.

I have found that going up through the Innuos range the SQ gets better. Innuos boxes can run Roon quite effectively. If you don’t want dabble with Linux they provide a simple solution.

If you want to spend less then I have tried the M2Tech HiFace 2. It costs £175 approximately.

I have the feeling I now have something better than NDS.

Phil

40

Indeed - and for the avoidance of doubt this transport frame clock jitter is nothing to so with the jitter that may result from the DAC clock. So jitter or more precisely the transport clock being frequency modulated by noise will couple noise into the receiver. Prevention is better than cure.

And perhaps some people don’t realise the actual sequence of sample data in SPDIF is not a consistently timed stream of sample data… The data is chopped up into a hierarchy of frames, as SPDIF is its own transport protocol - and so from a continuous stream perspective the sample data would be exceedingly jittery - and that would be also for the idealised case of a perfect transport clock.