I wouldn’t be too sure the NDX5x will be much of an improvement.
I certainly wouldn’t suggest it as a blind purchase.
The app will seem Stone Age compared to Sonos and you’ll have to say goodbye to Deezer.
Plus Roon won’t be an option going forward.
A second hand Auralic Aries mini could be just your man.
(I have owned the n-DAC and SuperUniti so have experience of the DAC and the old streaming platform).
.sjb
Some interesting thoughts above.
One the one hand, Naim streamers, including legacy models, are equipped with digital inputs, so, in theory, could still be used as a DAC to a cheaper streaming transport with more services available. I would argue that this, or non web-based streaming, is where the future value of legacy streamers lies.
How does the n-DAC compare with the DACs found inside any of the Naim streamers? Perhaps someone with experience of comparing them could input here? I too would think that the n-DAC is based on older technology, but how much of a DAC’s performance is based on the ‘technology’ and how much is the implementation/design? What would also be interesting to know is how the ND5XS2 compares overall with an n-DAC? Which contains the better DAC? An ND5XS2 retails at roughly double what an n-DAC costs used. I assume, rightly or wrongly, that an N-DAC with a good input signal should outperform an ND5XS, otherwise, why would the n-DAC be worth more used?
As for streaming, I am just getting into it and have found it surprisingly straightforward so far. However, talk of different Ethernet cables and switches etc. leaves me cold - too many variables and for ever wondering if the setup is optimal. At least with a CD I just put it into a capable machine and press play, knowing I will get the best of it that my player can provide.
Re your last point, its much the same with streaming. Once something works, it works. Can it be bettered by spending more money on ever esoteric extras or replacements, well yes, maybe, or only if you believe in self confirmation based on how much you’ve spent.
I have an older streaming system of Sqbox server and sqbox touch and duets. All work perfectly well and give a good sound through my various Naim kit in different rooms. Recently I upgraded the previous CA dac to a Qutest, a significant improvement in sound quality, at a cost. I am now looking at replacing the sqbox system only because of it’s limitations in streaming hires files. Otherwise the sqbox plus qutest would stay until it broke 
Better cables and switches aren’t needed in my system (which includes my mk1 ears), but no doubt if I wanted to fiddle and spend, a SQ improvement could be realised.
So for me a streamer/renderer/transport (use name of choice) plus a good dac provides my simple source to feed my Naim kit, and sounds awesome.
When the nDAC was introduced I recall many thought that it would be pretty immune to the quality of the digital signal it was fed with. That proved not to be the case, so the quality of the streaming transport will likely affect ultimate SQ. Several good suggestions in the thread, but well worth taking time over your selection.
Roger
The NDAC was promoted by Naim as a possible upgrade to, amongst other things, the NDX. To my ears it was a worthwhile upgrade, even without an external PSU which gives you a further 3 possible improvements. I haven’t listened to it on an NDX2, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it still improved things there.
The following extract was from a spreadsheet provided by a Naim user, which shows some DAC details. See article
Thanks for this post. Very informative for sure. As a nDAC user being fed from a ND5XS2 I do wonder which DSP chip gets invoked first? First hand experience, a used nDAC regardless how old it is sounds fantastic with a quality transport.
Without a doubt adding a bare nDAC to a ND5XS2 is an upgrade IMHO. More bass, slightly darker(more organic) sound, larger soundstage etc. Not that there is anything wrong with a ND5XS2 I just happened to find a bargain nDAC. The downside, 2 box source. Looking at the spreadsheet snippet kind of confirms my findings for the analytical side of my brain haha. The streaming board in the new streamers is fantastic and its an important component. I previously went through the steps the OP had albeit with Sonore/macMini products, although really good, the ND5XS2 sounded better and I stopped thinking about PS/dc4 cables etc for the Sonore etc. At the time I couldn’t afford a NDX2 (Mexico vacation). Went for a ND5X2 and just love streaming via Tidal/Quboz/local. nDAC was a surprise local find.
@eenph If you like the sound of the old nDAC, it is a great value for the money.
Big advantages against the current and the previous generation of Naim streamers are that the nDAC is rock solid, it does not rely on application-level software, does not require continuous software updates (and annoying related changes of the sound quality) and it has an impressive number of inputs.
The disadvantages are a perhaps higher sensitivity to the quality of its feed in comparison with more modern (better isolated, buffered, etc.) DACs and the continuous temptation to improve it with a very expensive PSU.
I have a nDAC since about 6 years and I would have no concerns buying another one today, especially at the current prices.
That said, if you do not need so many inputs and of you are fine with a non-Naim DAC, there are very interesting alternatives.
I still hope that Naim will some day come up with a new DAC without integrated streaming platform and with a number of inputs comparable to that of the nDAC.
If this doesn’t not happen until my nDAC needs to be replaced, I will eventually move towards Chord DACs, I think.
I agree! I’d love for Naim to come out with a new DAC. Yes the temptation to add a XPSDR or 555PS is a powerful thing.
Since I use the ND5XS2 as my transport into the nDAC I do hear the software updates from Naim via the streamer, and recently they sound fantastic to me. (My room, system etc)
The problem is that frequent software updates of the streamers are both necessary and meaningful. These updates are typically non-reversible. Ideally, they should only improve the functionalities and leave the sound quality unchanged.
As a matter of fact, this is not always the case, at least according to the many reports in this forum.
Firmware upgrades on DACs without streaming platforms, on the other hand, are rare and typically reversible.
Thus, for users that value peace of mind, DACs without streaming platforms are perhaps better choices than DACs with integrated streaming platforms.
Of course, with a separated DAC + transport, one has more boxes than with an integrated streamer. But one also has more flexibility.
At the end of the day, all solutions have advantages and disadvantages and what would be the simplest and more meaningful solutions from a user’s perspective are still unavailable.
Glad I could stimulate a bit of discussion. So I wanted to offer an explanation as to why I think the DAC, whether internal or external, is more important than the streamer.
If you’re streaming from a service like Deezer or Tidal it’s likely the server is not even in the same country. The music is split into chunks stuffed in envelopes with your streamer’s address on and sent down ethernet cables, through a switch probably into an optical fibre backbone, through several other switches that route it towards your home, then converted back to an electrical signal at the cabinet at the end of your street (if you’re lucky), sent down a telephone cable (or a coaxial if you have Virgin cable), to your router, through WiFi or your Cat6 to your streamer.
Different chunks of music may be routed through different cities on the way and arrive out of order. Your streamer puts it all back together, collects it in a RAM buffer and then uses its own internal clock to send this to the DAC. This is amazingly efficient: even cheap £150 smart phones can download photos and documents from WiFi without errors because they have sophisticated error correction. Do you ever see pixel errors in a photo?
Now streamed music is more demanding, at 1-2 Mbits/s or higher for hi-res, but it’s still well below the bandwidth you’re paying for: though the better your broadband the more overhead the streamer will have to request missing envelopes and for them to be delivered in time for it to reassemble the music file in time to play to you uninterrupted.
The route to your streamer from the remote server is low-fi but it doesn’t matter because of the error correction. Cheap smart phones can do this perfectly and relatively cheap streamers like the Sonos Connect can to.
Where the hi-fi bit comes in is taking the bit perfect stream and converting it into an analogue signal. I agree a poor streamer could send interference down the connection to the DAC and a poor streamer’s timing could be so off that the DAC can’t make sense of it, but the point is that digital is the way of the modern world because the information transmitted is resilient to interference and can be passed bit perfect through multiple systems.
So for me, the DAC is far more important than the streamer as it is downstream from the error correction. Saying that I am moving to a ND5XS as it can handle hi-res and the Sonos Connect can’t. I’m also buying a DC1 BNC-BNC cable as the bitstream feed from the ND5XS streamer will be downstream of the error correction and therefore has to be well-looked after before feeding into my nDAC. Will my nDAc sound better than a bare ND5XS, who knows? But I do love the sound of my nDAC and can never imagine letting it go.
Are Chord DACs more sophisticated than the nDAC, probably, but hey I love the rhythm of Naim.
IMHO that’s an easy yes! (my yes is in context with the newer ND5XS2/DC1/HiLine) Nice write-up on your findings! Again yes the nDAC is “old” but it really sounds fantastic, even better with a external PowerSupply.
Time to pimp my Sonos port then !
With regard to jitter, with the NDAC reclocking, that removes any inherent jitter in the sample rate, to be fair most DACs have done this for many years now.
The consideration however is the transport clock in the SPDIF (or usb ) stream. If this transport clock jitters, then this noise energy can couple into the receiving device causing ground plane noise and other EM artefacts.
Therefore having a low jitter transport clock helps.
excuse my ignorance, but how do you know if a transport clock has a low jitter? Is there a value to lookup?
Curious which Sonore products you are referring to?
Sonore specifically, microRendu 1.4 then UltraRendu(I don’t recall the version# ). Also at one time or another these additions Wyrd4Sound reclocker for Sonos/AppleAirport, Cardas DC4 cable, Ultracap LPS 1.0 then 1.2, Transparent USB Cable, iFI wallwart. When I started adding up all these individual components it was getting damn close to a Naim streamer.
