Integrated with extras or separated amp without extras

Thanks a lot hungryhalibut. My wife build furnuture and she is going to make a beautifull heavy rack with stands against incoming sounds etc :muscle::wink:

Thanks a lot feeling zen! I will listen to different settings coming wednesday. And do not go for the sn3 as you and others gave some insight in the limitation of upgrading in the future.

HiFi racks are not conventional furniture. Whilst your wife make make great furniture it might not make a good HiFi rack.

Thanks frenchrooster, I will listen to this setup next week. With Naim there are so Many different ways to ad or remove things🙈. I will also try the 282 with the 300DR. But maybe this is to much for the 282 with the hicap. Changing this to the 252 with a supercap is far from my budget

Sorry, I meant 282/250. If you add now, or later, an XPS DR to the NDX2 with the 282/250, that is likely a better option. If you want less boxes and the headphones, then option 1 looks good, I think, if the SN2 is enough current for the speakers and you plan to stop there.

Thanks a lot for all your insight. Really :pray:. Next week I will listen to this setup with the audio dealer. He does not have the Hartbeth 5, but is able to arrange some spendor 1/2 speakers wich will be the speaker to come closer to my Hartbeths. I also will try the 300DR.

I have one more question. With the Luxman I missed the punch. I got some punch, putting loudnes on. But when I added loudnes, the bass was resonading through the speaker (not nice). So my question is: Do you have the punch and prat on the Hartbeth with the 282/hicap DR/250DR combination, and does the speaker handle the bass well? Thanks again!!!

Thanks Mike👍

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I guess this thread is created for me. Here goes.

Yes, the Harbeth Super HL5 Plus has plenty of punch and PRaT with the 282/HicapDR/250DR. Before that, a bit of history.

When I first bought the Harbeth Super HL5 non-Plus about 9 or 10 years ago, I tried not less than 7 amp combinations solely for the criteria that you are seeking - punch. If I hadn’t gone through the amp exploration exercise, I wouldn’t be using the Harbeth now. The 202/200 gave me some of the punch and PRaT that were missing with all other amps. The LFD Zero Mk3 also provided some of the desirable traits with the Harbeth but I settled with Naim for its reputation, reliability and build quality. And yes, the remote control too.

I bought the 202/200 used and didn’t have the funds for the higher level amps at that time.

Seven years later, I upgraded the older SHL5s to the SHL5 Plus and after some encouragement from the nice folks here particularly the late Frank Abela, I got the 282/HicapDR/250DR for the Super HL5 Plus. I bought the amps new partly because I wanted to get off the upgrade wagon and am glad to report that the plan had worked out very well as intended.

The 282/HicapDR/250DR sounded very good indeed with the Harbeth speakers. I lately tried a Sonneteer Orton after reading some rave reviews on the great match between the Orton and Harbeth but ultimately found the sound quality of the Naim separates to be superior. Similarly like you, instead of the Luxman amp I find the Sonneteer to lack the punch and dynamics of the 282/HicapDR/250DR. The Orton may well be under-powered for the Super HL5 Plus but the general character of the amp is evident when it is compared to the Naim at low to moderate volume. The Naim is bass driven which contributed a lot to the punch, PRaT and dynamics. With the Sonneteer (or Luxman in your case), everything sounded considerably smoother, softer and calmer which resulted in a flat and lacklustre sound. With the Naim, everything sounds more energetic, percussion and drums in the background having considerable bite and sting as it explodes out from the mix. With the Soneteer, the sound of percussion and drums sound softer and duller, sort of drowned in the background. The bass performance of the Orton is also no where near the Naim.

The 282/HicapDR/250DR is a forward and dynamic sounding combination which brought the Harbeth speakers alive. The best amp I’ve heard so far with the Super HL5 Plus. The higher range Naim amps may well bring further gains but I’m happy with where I am right now. There is no end to this game and I guess everyone has to stop somewhere.

The upgrade I did from 282/HCDR to 282/SCDR is easily as significant as when I upgraded from 202 to 282 (both with HiCap2). Moving a 282 from HC to SC is transformative. Everything is better in a significant way. It’s more dynamic, has better soundstage, deeper and more refined bass, richer mids and smoother highs, all with greater resolution. It might be a big step up price-wise, but you are getting what you pay for. It’s similar to adding a XPSDR to a NDX2, if not even more so.

Thanks Josquin,

With your insights I asked the audio dealer to also put the Supercap in the demo. I have a limited budget, so the choice has to be one of these options

option 1: 250 DR/Supercap/N 282/NDX2

option 2: 300DR/Hicap DR/N 282/NDX2

option 3: 250 DR/two Hicap DR/NDX2/XPS SPU

Option one is probably the most logical.

While I do not know, how the 282 with one Hicap DR will handle the powerful 300 DR (while most would think of the 252 with a supercap, with is far from my budget)

And with 2 x Hicap, it will probably have a little improvement on the sing Hicap. And with 2200 euro less in the Hicaps construction instead of the supercap, I can at the XPS (of course with adding 2700 euro)

So, its a little of a puzzle.

Thank you so much for your input on my question🙏👍Michael

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2 if you will get a 500s some day ( or decade) option 1 if you will settle for it without an itch

Option 3 doesn’t have a pre-amp? I think at this level you really want the XPS DR on the NDX2. I have this with a SN2 and the XPS DR has really lifted the performance.

Mate, that’s a budget that demands a home demo if possible of both options. Take your time to be sure you get it right. Room size shape etc all have an influence. One good point already made is if upgrade pathways are important. First thing though is to be loving the music. Kind regards.

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Ha Mike, Option 3 has the XPS DR on the NDX 2. Both budget wise, the 282 does not have the Supercap, instead it would have two hicaps DR. So is it wise to have the NDX2 benefit the quality of the Supercap DR on the 282. Or is a balans with 2 Hicaps DR with the XPS2 on the NDX2 a better choice?:shushing_face::shushing_face:

Of course if budget is unlimited, I would not have to make a choice

Hi @MikeN, so have you sold the SN 2 and you now only have Luxman.

True, unfortunately. I’m really saying that even at the SN2 level, the amp will reveal the better quality of source with the XPS DR added to the NDX2. Upping the power supply on the 282 won’t reveal detail not delivered by the source. I’d suggest comparing both if you can. Future proofing is the other consideration, as who knows what in 5 to 10 years time.

Incidentally @MikeN, if you’re not happy with the Luxman 509 and thinking of chucking it, I’d happily take it off your hands if you’re giving it away :grin:

Hi there, I was in exactly your position about 7 months ago and have fortunately a VERY understanding dealer. Over the course of the first few months I swapped a lot in and out of my system.

Bottom line : Harbeths love a bit of amp power.

Here is the progression of kit thrown at the problem:

  1. Started with 40th Anniversary M30.2 Harbeths and the Naim Uniti Nova. Problem : Beautiful top end, little to no bass response. Involving on some tracks, flat on others.

  2. Changed out the M30.2s for the bigger 40th Anniversary SHL5+ Harbeths. Problem : Got flatter, with slightly dulled dynamics.

  3. Changed out Naim Uniti Nova for a Supernait 2 and NDX2. Problem : SHL5+ suddenly woke up a bit. More bass, better dynamics. Improvement was stark with these Harbeths. Could have stayed at this point. But then you think, well if two boxes improved this, what about three.

  4. Added a HiCapDR to the Supernait2. Problem : Suddenly the ‘exciting’ sound got smoother and more refined. I was hearing more, but the slightly ‘lively’ rawer experience was missing. The Harbeths sounded safer.

  5. Got the chance to upgrade the Supernait2 to a NAC282 and 250DR combo and reused my NDX2 and HiCapDR. Problem : The sound got punchier, whilst keeping the detail alive. In fact detail came through harder. This certainly is a system worthy of the SHL5+. But I was starting to think that maybe I’m not a Harbeth guy. I loved how it played acoustic. But rock and pop, not so much. I’m a child of the 80s, so if my favourite bands don’t sound exciting, then why listen.

  6. Kept the NDX2, NAC282, HiCapDR and NAP250DR and ditched the Harbeths for a set of Prestige edition Bowers and Wilkins 805D3s on their specific B&W stands. Problem : no problem - absolutely fantastic and have had this system like this for the last 4 months. Until today…

  7. Ditched the HiCapDR and upgraded to a SupercapDR. So now I am running the following config : NDX2, 282, SCDR, 250DR into B&W 805D3. Loving it so far.

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You soooo need to get a XPSDR for that NDX2. Ask me how I know. :wink:

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Hello Marka, Thanks so much for sharing your experience. It is really very useful!
The most important thing for my is to have the naim punch on the Hartbeths. I recognize exactly what you experience with pop and rock music. It is something that also does not sound well to my ears with the Hartbeths. But I am a sucker voor the acoustics (Ben Harper, Ryan Adams, Amos Lee, Ray Lamontagen etc.) And the Hartbeths were paying this kind of music very well with my supernait 2.

So from your experience I understand well, that the combo of 250DR/HiCap/NDX2/NAC282 is Safe for my preferred music??

In this combination I would still be able to afford a 300 DR instead of the 250 DR, since you experience the Hartbeths need power. The only question will be, if a hopefully good punch with the 250 DR is not chanting into a booming sound instead of punchy. My dealer has some Spendor 1/2 to try this. This speaker should be close to the Hartbeths.

So I will start trying the 250DR/HiCap/NDX2/NAC282 combo;
After this try a XPS DR voor the streaming part;
After this disconnect the 250 DR en XPS DR and add the 300 DR.

The best sounding option with the dealer, will have to come home voor a home demo. Just to see if the setup is also good in my own space.

Greetings, Mike