Investment and Pensions Ideas and Information

Re the latter, unquestionably yes (see below), and re the former, the answer for equities declining was more driven by the uncertain outlook created by the need for increased interest rates to damp down Covid & energy price/input factor inflation affecting macro corporate performance.

The big issue since the GFC in 2008/9 (which some predicted would be short lived!), is that the developed economies had become reliant and complacent on ‘cheap money’ (vis interest rates) and QE (quantitative easing), the latter used to avoid any market liquidity issues, and boost demand. Yields across the equity, bond and wider debt markets had become artificially compressed i.e. making bonds have far higher capital values than they should have done (things arguably made worse by the various central bands upping demand for their QE programmes). The relative prices of equities, bonds and other instruments was also materially out of kilter for the risk premia which should have been in play.

This overall scenario is anathema to the classical economic pictures around economies working to 3/4/5-year cycles, where interest rates and thereby bond valuations operated in counterbalance to falling equity prices, the latter seen in response to emerging recessions i.e. as economies veered towards recession, interest rates would be cut and bond values harden, thereby acting as a bit of a shock absorber (in capital value and also income terms).

I think it’s fair to say, things in the run up to 2022 were acknowledged to have been awry, as the scenario simply wasn’t sustainable and something was bound to upset things. The challenge is working out what’s going to give and by how much, especially when the various central banks nowadays have mandates to focus on inflation and employment – and the Fed was very open about the need to control inflation which, as it turned out, was far stickier than initially forecast.

Of course, bond prices remain supressed, as the suggested rate reductions which would buoy capital prices have been delayed > expectations.

There have been many pieces in the UK media which suggest that the 60/40 equity/bond fund may have had its day…hmm, I’m not so sure, as the question remains of where do you invest if you don’t accept this kind of profile? Do you go 80/20 etc,…kinda Dirty Harry time, ‘do you feel lucky…’!

3%! Who dat den?

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I can hear you thinking ‘yes, pleaaaaaasssseeee!’

Nah, I’m salaried only, paid to look after people, no sales targets.

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Yes FR. I get into disagreements with people over this. If one does a careful research of historical housing prices over many years (80?), you’ll find that they triple in any 20 year segment.
An investment at an 8% average return, also triples in 20 years.
In Canada, there is no capital gain tax on ones principal residence, so buy the biggest house you can afford.

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Interesting arithmetic, I make 8% compounded over 20 years a gain of 4.66.
Paul.

I’m in the Toronto area as well.

My house has increased in value by a multiple of 6 since purchased just over 20 years ago.

Sounds great but my kids will want to buy a house and if they want to live in Toronto…………

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If “no risk” means “low chance of losing money if held over the long term (10 or 20 years)”, then perhaps I see what you mean.

But a broader interpretation of property risks would be: “positive returns are expected over the long term to compensate for the high risks, illiquidity and costs”.

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I mean quite no risk. But of course, there is no 100 % guarantee. But it’s the strongest secure investment.
Then not for every areas or towns. But if you buy in central Paris, Versailles, St Tropez….the price of the house will increase over years. But maybe not so spectacularly as 20 years before,

My point was that expected returns over 20 years is just one aspect of risk.

In the UK in the 1990’s many property investors came badly unstuck. Property values don’t tend to dive. Instead, the market tends to stagnate which is very bad news for forced sellers and inconvenient for everyone else.

Property is often a leveraged investment with additional risks if borrowing on non-guaranteed terms through a mortgage.

There are risks of tax changes too: capital gains, purchase and sales, council tax, landlord tax changes etc.

If renting out then there are tenant risks and potential void periods.

I do see the benefits of property investment and I own a second home. But I just wanted to give some background as to why the returns are consistently favourable over the long term.

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Properties don’t just sit there gaining value over 10-20 years, they need money spending on them…all the time…and at some point, a lot of money.

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Have you got your calculator upside down? :grinning:

Last 20 years ours is increased four times. But if you wait another 20 or 30 years and then measure 20-year segments, you’ll find that the softening of the market after a major push equalizes it to tripling every 20 years.
Obviously, I can afford a house in Toronto, but I wouldn’t buy one in Toronto. We’ll be moving out a bit. We’re retired now.

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I’m retiring out of the Toronto area in about 5 years.

Buy a home for half the price and gift the kids with the other half to help them out in these tough times.

Better to give with a warm hand opposed to cold.

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We bought our current house for £100,000 in 1992 and could sell it now for around £600,000. But so what? Houses are so expensive that young people buying starting out cannot afford one, at least not where they want to live. If maybe we live another 20 years the kids will be middle aged before they inherit, which is crazy. As first time buyers we bought our first house in 1986 when we were 22 and 25. How many twenty somethings can do that these days? Houses should be bought as places to live, not as investments.

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It’s all very confusing and EVERYONE wants to make money off you out of your own money. If it’s not set up fees ,it’s annual charges then the bloody Govt wants to tax you again - given that we have to pay on earnings right thro our lives…
I tried in vain to get an amount from Aviva of what I might get as a pension in 18 months time but they couldn’t come up with a figure (!) The ‘might’ be able to do so if I paid for an annuity but wouldn’t tell me an actual cost of that …merely that it came out of the fund!

My 10 year return on investments is over double on the number I proposed to AI

Hypothetical

$1 000 000 in RRSPs (retirement savings) with a 5% yearly return. How much can I expect to draw per year to reach zero dollars after 25 years?

In Canada
This number wouldn’t include CPP & Old Age pensions, spousal monies or Real Estate.

From Figaro immobilier magazine, in France :

« Since 2002, property prices have increased spectacularly throughout France. Paris obviously did not escape the trend.

In the French capital, prices have multiplied by more than 3 in 20 years. The average price observed in 2002 was €3,271/m2, an increase of more than 211% if we compare to the price recorded in January 2022 by this same article.

A reality that it is however good to qualify. Indeed, the successive crises since 2020 (Covid, War in Ukraine, inflation, interest rates, etc.) can change the perspective. Between August 2020 and December 2023, prices fell from €11,420 / m2 to €10,636 / m2 according to Le Figaro Immobilier. Since January 2024, prices seem to be on the rise again.«

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Ignoring the comment that I do not know how to do compound arithmetic, there is another aspect to consider when weighing up investments in the stock market with investments in property.
If I buy a £100,000 pounds house and kept it for 20 years and spent no money on maintenance or upkeep, it would be a wreck! If I put the same amount into an ISA my maintenance / management cost would be £45 per year (HL).
Friends of ours we have known from school 60 years ago and who had similar incomes to us chose to invest in property and bought a few houses to rent. The return on these looked OK until you take account of all of the hassle, management charges, continuous replacement of fixtures and fittings etc. The actual return was barely better than inflation.
Now the tricky bit, they are just starting to realise that upon their death, there will be a significant inheritance tax charge to be settled, and they cannot easily release the equity to pass on in a timely manner.
We chose to invest in the stock market (a range of Investment Trusts, average return over 40 years of 10% above inflation) ISAs and SIPPs.
By comparison it has been easy and pleasurable for us over the last few years to progressively release equity and set up and fill up ISAs and SIPPs for our children and grandchildren. This in a slow and progressive way, where we still have enough easy access funds for whatever needs we may encounter going forward.
Just an alternate thought.
Paul.

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Are we missing something here? 8% interest on £100 compounded over 20 years is £466.10 according to my calculations.

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