I think we are not talking about the same subject.
The best electronics today , which I often see being cited everywhere, are :
Soulution, Dagostino, Constellation, Nagra, MBL, Kondo, Naim Statements, Dartzeel, VAC audio, Audionote, Lamm, Audioresearch, …Gryphon, Boulder.
The best speakers are Wilson, Dynaudio, Magico, JBL Everest, Rockport, Kharma, Sonus Faber, MBL, Focal, Tidal…
These are principally the most cited electronics and speakers today, considered among the best.
No one of this brand uses active crossover. It was my only point. No more.
I’ve already said I have no idea who else does good speakers designed for active, and I’m not going to research as I have no axe to grind here - if you don’t believe in active driving that is up to you. Read what others have said in this thread. Have a listen.
As for people who make active crossovers, there are a number, aside from Naim with the SNAXO of course: ATC make their own, Bryston’s is used widely in professional systems and by PMC. I believe Dynaudio make or used to make one to incorporate in their own speakers, I seem to recall Exposure do one. There are a variety of specialist pro audio brands, and I believe there are several manufacturers of DSP audio products that do them.
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No need to listen, because they don’t exist, apart with Naim speakers or Kudos, or some very little numbers of brands in the world. Perhaps pro audio uses more, but it’s pro…
As for Naim active vs passive, I have never said that I believe that passive is better.
I don’t understand why it’s so difficult, very often, to understand each other.
I don’t know what you mean they don’t exist: listen to the ATC actives: the SCM 150ASL or above if you only want to discuss high end, but otherwise even the lowly SCM40A. Or the PMC actives, like MB2XBD-A, or the non-XBD version MB2-A.
But there I think I will leave it, as you seem to be influenced by majority brand choices not those who actually do it or who have compared active multi-amping with passive speaker, and whilst you generally seem to be an avid review reader you seem somewhat reluctant to find out what reviewers say of the upper range active speakers I mentioned.
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Well, the most likely reason is actually consistency. Active presents a massive unknown for the speaker manufacturer. They can control what their passive crossover does and how it sounds and performs with their speakers. But with active, the customer or deal could do anything. And in doing so make things easily worse if cocked up. As with many things in hifi, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing and so many audiophiles have very limited understanding and yet fancy themselves as a bit of an expert. It would be pretty easy to have a pair of PMC Fenestria sounding awful because someone decided to go active and got it wrong and then showed off the result in a demo room. Hence, these expensive hulks are passive only.
There is so much more to going active that simply shoving in an active crossover and setting crossover points and roll off curves. The position of the drivers also often requires minute delays to be set. Especially for speakers that are vertical. The stop point of the cones is different by many centimetres. With speakers that are slanted back at an angle (like SL2, or PMC Twenty ranges), the stop points are nearly the same so crossovers without delay circuits can be used. If you draw an imaginary line from the forwardmost edge of the voice coil on those, it actually goes nearly vertically down, not at a slant.
Failure to understand such intricacies can really be the undoing. Incorrect delay makes the difference between hearing a “speaker” versus a “box with a bunch of drive units”. Why would a speaker manufacturer want to risk that?
Then of course, there is going active with built in amps. This makes sense for music lovers but maybe not for box swappers. Any upgrade requires chucking the whole lot out. Also means if something breaks, you are sans music. You cannot just drop in a loaner amp because the speaker is gone too.
I’m a bit of a broken record on this, but I’m getting into the groove with crossoverless single driver speakers. It turns out, some designs really can deliver the goods and in large rooms. And you can get the main benefit of active off a single amp.
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You have cut off my post…I wrote they don’t exist, apart …Naim, Kudos, and a minority of others brands.
Today active is really a minor part of high end audio. Just that. Your conclusions and interpretations are yours. Don’t say what I have not said or thought, please.
As for ATC, I heard ATC 19a and 40a, with a Bryston pre. I was not involved.
One speaker I fancy hearing is the Fergusson-Hill FH-001. Originally with a Lowther driver, I understand that changed to Voxativ with improved performance. It has no crossover, however it only goes down to 150Hz so needs a pair of subs to fill in. (The subs of course would be actively driven, crossover before the amp - same, I think, with all subs. (I wonder why…?))
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Interestingly echoed by the vast majority in this thread who have experience of active… But I am not here to persuade you of anything, so I’ll say no more. Have a good night!
You might like the Omegas with their response down to 38Hz. The off axis isn’t great but if you have an actual listening position, they sound like nothing I’ve ever heard. Well that’s not strictly true. The last time I was hearing something this linear and transparent was ESL-63s. Truly beguiling.
The conclusions on active in that thread refer principally to Naim. First point.
Second point: I have never written that I don’t believe that Naim active can’t sound better than passive. However it concerns only Kudos and Naim speakers.
I think it’s better to close this sterile discussion. It goes nowhere, you are talking of one subject, I am talking of another one,.
Hardly surprising given the forum!
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The one thing that gets brushed to one side is amps
Todays amps are much more powerful and have the grunt to drive speakers, speakers have also got easier to drive, so putting less stress on the amp, these two together probably make all the difference and why going active on modern speakers is pointless probably.
Naim amps even today are not the most powerful, even the 500dr isn’t, but it does has grunt, and this also is probably just enough these days and why the split between active and passive on the new kudos range of speakers is so slight, thats its a 50/50 split, for active or passive.
I guess if you like lots of boxes, cables and drive your speakers very loud all the time, then active is probably more beneficial, especially if using naim amps, but for the rest of the time its not, that is of course unless you are running naim speakers and more so if also using olive amps.
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Is hat a fact? I didn’t know that.
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The argument seems simple, with the complicating factors being cost and convenience…
Does a system of ‘multiple lesser amps’ fed by active XOs sound better than than a better amp driving passive XOs.
Simple question.
In my case, the answer was decidedly no, with the bonus of convenience and cost…and less of an element of being locked in.
No measurements required, just listening with ears and transduction to my auditory cortex, just in case anyone should doubt the validity of this argument.
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I think it can only be considered pointless if you compare any given speakers active and passive and find that active sounds no better to you (which would be surprising). But an expensive and more complicated thing to do it most certainly is, so it is down to whether the difference justifies what it takes - which will depend on the individual and on the circumstances. I can certainly understand people deciding it isn’t worth it. And at that point of course it would also be appropriate to consider whether better speakers are available, whose passive may match the lesser speaker’s active…*
In some ways active driving could be likened to adding additional power supplies to a component, rather than getting a better component, though of course not at all the same.
Incidentally, it is not just listening loud that benefits, as although at lower levels there is less power across the passive XO components, and the amp is less stressed, there is still the benefit of direct drive and restricted frequency range in each amp.
*The reasons for going active vary. Some because a particular available actively driven speaker is the best sounding, or best sounding for the amp/speaker budget, that the person has heard. Some people go active because they just love a particular speaker and want to get the very best out of it. And some go the route more by accident of circumstances than deliberately setting out to do it, e.g having a spare amp, or perhaps as in my case, interested in DIY speaker building, when an active XO really lends itself to the design and optimisation process - then having the capability and trying it on my PMCs showed the benefit sonically.
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That is indeed one question. There is of course the other: does a system of three identical amps fed by active XOs sound better than the same amp driving passive XOs. And in between, active with a combination of the better and lesser amps(sometimes referred to as ‘wonky’.
Been reading your exchanges here with interest, but that last comment is a bit silly.
Simply put, in my view and has already been pointed out, active systems have gone a little out of fashion and the brands you cite aren’t supporting it as it’s probably far easier to market and sell passive systems for the domestic environment.
As posted earlier, scoff if you like, I use an active system with humble IXO and 2× Nap 90/3’s sounds superb.
Figure in LP12, numerous power supplies, CD player, streamer, pre amp etc I have about 12 boxes making up my system
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In my humble system definitely yes (2 Amps not 3 though). I most preferred the sound of an IXO and 2x90/3’s into Allae’s than a passive 250 as I explained in my earlier comment.
As with all things probably system/room dependant. In my system I believe their is some good synergy with these components greater than the sum of their parts.
I believe the theory of active operation is good at any level from lowly Nap 90’s all the way to Statement. The same basic principle is working, each power amp working in a narrower bandwidth, providing more headroom I believe for the frequency range each amp is assigned to, much lower distortion, and direct connection to each drive unit for improved response and control.
Whatever the technical explanation, simply more musical, PRaT as far as my ears and feet are concerned.
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Another manufacturer not mentioned so far is Meridian who, please correct if I’m wrong, produce active digital systems with speakers using built in amplifiers and DSP processing.
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Not my experience, but much lower down the product range. For me 2 lesser amps were better than the one. But, and I’m not trying to be funny, I listen to the music not the HiFi