Is computer audio dead?

[Peder]

@frenchrooster

For mac mini vs linn klimax comparing, i am
confused and lost. A klimax ds is on the level of the naim nds/ 555dr.

@frenchrooster,…confused and lost.

Same for me,.my friend lives 300km from me. When I talked to him on the phone for the first time,…that call was held for over four hours .

He “Burns” for this as you understand,…I also “burn” for this,.I have understand now .
Then I was like you describe it,…Confused and Lost.
So the next day I called a Linn and Naim trader that I have known personally for many years,and who live in the same city as my new friend.

Asked…Is This True,.or is it just fantasies.

My friend,.the Linn & Naim trader confirmed that this was true.
But it took a long time before I understood correctly how it was possible…BUT,.it was possible.

@frenchrooster

If you were living in France, i would make you a visit tomorrow to hear that.

@frenchrooster,…Yes it is a shame that we live so far from each other.

I have 1580km to Helsingborg,.then 210km through Denmark.
The ferry to Puttgarden,.one hour,so it is far between us.

@frenchrooster

For curiosity, had you the occasion to compare his big linear ps vs an uptone js2?

@frenchrooster,…No not me,.but I’ll check with my friend.
So I will return on this.

But he is so extreme,.so I can say already now,.that such a comparison is wasted time to do.
He works so,.that if he hears something that “not sounds good”.
Then he can make some little change in his LPS to test this.
It doesn’t take long for him,.with the knowledge he has
So he does with everything in his system.

So testing against a commercial LPS,.that is developed to lie within a certain price level is not fair against Uptone.
Hope you understand what I mean.

It will be as we say in Sweden “Pole Out”

/Peder🙂

[Innocent_Bystander]

@Ardbeg10y

. by noisy I did not mean the fans etc but the electrical noise it creates

Yes, and useless into a DAC without galvanic isolation like Hugo, except through an isolator (I used to use a Gustard U12 for that). Some people use the MM’s optical output, but that is still limited by the Mac’s own circuitry & drivers - Audirvana lets you use a dedicated USB bus to minimise effect, but needs a very good isolator, unless the DAC itself isolates/blocks RF

[TiberioMagadino]

The Signal to Noise ratio of a Chord DAC (Mojo) fed by USB from a Mac mini is very low. It is often said “noisy computer” or “noisy network” but no measurements are given, if it is noisy then surely the S/N ratio should be worse from MM than from a fancy transport, but that wasn’t the case in the tests I saw.

I really don’t see any point on putting a linear PSU on a Mac mini and I’m not alone. Paul McGowan of PS Audio agrees. PS Audio has a range of PSU so if he felt it made a difference then he’d encourage customers to buy one, but no he demonstrates his top of the range DAC with an off the shelf Mac mini. The one thing he emphasises is don’t skimp on RAM.

I definitely found an absence of gadgets was good for sound quality. Simply using a decent upscaler such as Chord’s MScaler or Blu2 seems to give more than adequate isolation to me.

As always only you can judge if anything makes a difference to you, but I definitely won’t be adding a LPSU to my Mac mini. If you can get one on trial then that’s the way to go if you really think it might be beneficial. In my view I get much greater impact from using J River’s DSP Studio to tune out some of the effects of my listening room.

[frenchrooster]

more and more hifi well known reviewers tend to think the superiority of ethernet vs usb connection.
A network bridge with chord / blue or mscaler should sound better vs usb to a server or even mac mini.
It’s what i read more and more nowadays. But havn’t tried

[Innocent_Bystander]

@TiberioMagadino

if it is noisy then surely the S/N ratio should be worse from MM than from a fancy transport, but that wasn’t the case in the tests I saw

RF noise from the computer modulating the analog audio in a Hugo didn’t produce high audio noise, so not adversely affecting S/N ratio, but to me just didn’t sound good. Trying the Mac’s optical out improved it markedly, much clearer, despite the Apple limitations. Using a dedicated USB bus through Gustard U12 improved further. The isolation, whether Mac optical or Gustard isolator was like lifting a veil - or perhaps a cloak. I have also the effect of ground plane modulation described ascreating a false brightness to the sound, that some people apparently like, superficially at least (I think it was Rob Watts, Chord’s DAC designer whe sent into that at some depth).

[Innocent_Bystander]

@frenchrooster

more and more hifi well known reviewers tend to think the superiority of ethernet vs usb connection.

That may of course depend on the source, the DAC and the network. Only possible to be sure by trying with the specific components and location.

Of course, the other difference is that with DAC it is not a direct comparison, one using a renderer within the computer/source, the other requiring wither a streamer with renderer and DAC in the same box, or a separate renderer between the ethernet connection and the DAC.

To me, one beauty of direct connection of music store/renderer (MM/Audirvana, Melco, Innuos etc) is simplicity, and not streaming music live across a network which could have anything else on it - and absolutely no concern for switches or their power supplies. ethernet cables etc. (Melco, however, allows direct connection by either non-network ethernet as an alternative to usb).

[anon60564391]

Simon,

I chose this post of yours to return and answer, because it is so full of imprudent and subjective opinions given as facts that I couldn’t resist leaving my crate of Transylvanian earth and fly here to tell my 2 cents.

‘These days most don’t use ‘computers’ to play music, they use streamers, file/download players (…)’.

Imprecise: how do you know? I use both. Better, I use all, since in my opinion the last two are basically the same thing. My source is a MacBook Pro 13", 2011, stripped down to only serve as music server, it has a large enough SSD. It’s filled with ALACs or a few FLACs. I still don’t - and won’t, ever - understand the distinction between computer music and streaming (Tidal and all the gang): where do you think the music people stream from Tidal or Qobuz is stored? On servers, which are large computers - of which you know nothing, their brand, quality, cabling, nothing.
I suppose that when you say ‘computer music’ you refer to a computer connected via USB to a DAC: the worse use that can that can be done of a Mac/Pc, in fact; USB outputs (leaving alone the question of their quality) are under all the volume controls of a PC, they have the file pass through some part of the PCU, and most of all need an onboard software to manage the music (unless the external DAC has ‘streaming’ facilities): from the vituperated iTunes to the celebrated Audirvana, etc. All this is in fact useless. This will only trigger many’s paranoia about bit perfect and so on.

My MacBook Pro is wired LAN to a switch, then goes wired to an ND5 XS2. This way, not only it’s the Naim that does all – clocking, decoding, analogizing – but most of the Mac has NO part at all in all this: I leave iTunes off, turn all the 5 volume controls present in a Mac down to zero, music will flow: the ND5 XS2 helps itself directly with the files from the proper folder avoiding any other intermediate step pertaining to the Mac. Plus, an SSD has no moving parts, is faster and (so far) more reliable than a classic HD. And if I use the Mac on battery, I don’t even have the further paranoia of SMPS vs LPS.

‘Most music is digital now’.

True: since approximately 41 years, when Denon Record Company started using video LPCM to do the first musical recordings. Again, I don’t understand your use of the word ‘digital’.

These days your CD player or TT manufacturer is more likely to go out of business… can’t remember any major streaming company going out of business.

CD players are being manufactured since 35 years, discs are a century old (Denon Record Company was founded, guess, in 1911); these pay per listen companies are a few years old (as far as I can remember, the first was Last.FM), some artists will mainly (if not only) release their production on LP. I can imagine that such a technically skilled and informed person like you is throwing innocent provocation into the topic, because you can’t be so ill-informed… I see CDPs being sold each day, and TTs too. Most people use iPhones and earplugs, but if youngsters buy ‘physical’, they buy LPs.

When I was a boy, RAI (our national radio company) had a service called ‘Filodiffusione’: it’s the father of what today you find as RAI 5 Classical on Internet Radio. It was broadcast through the telephone line, it was in AM and its bandwidth limited to 12kHz (something beyond the hearing capabilities of, I suspect, most of the members here). It was (and, on FM, still is - it’s still working) uncompressed. People snubbed it because of its ‘limited’ bandwidth (proper FM reached a little higher), but it was real HiEnd compared to what most listen to today from the ‘streaming’ companies, which is basically hi-bitrate mp3. After decades of technical glory, we have finally gone back to Filodiffusione.

Using the app on my iPad is simple and it always works. My dealer says that the two only companies which are absolutely high quality and reliable are dCS and Naim.

Sometimes I still have an itch to choose a CD or an LP from the shelf and play it (I have an Oppo DV-980H coax connected to a nuForce DDA 100 and Neat Iotas in the studio as a system for my bigger Mac, which I use for my work - ah, yes, I am one of those non-existent person who sit at a computer). When I want background music there is the Marantz Consolette or one of the other four or five IRs we have around the house.

On one point I agree with you, in fact: background music will never disappear. Even if Tidal, Qobuz, MQA should disappear one could still go into a luxury Hotel and go up and down in the elevator, which usually broadcasts that kind of music.

Friendly,
Max

[TOBYJUG]

[Guinnless]

@anon60564391

My source is a MacBook Pro 13", 2011, stripped down to only serve as music server,

@anon60564391

My MacBook Pro is wired LAN to a switch, then goes wired to an ND5 XS2

So your source is actually a Naim ND5XS which isn’t a computer.

I believe this was Simon’s point.

@anon60564391

People snubbed it because of its ‘limited’ bandwidth (proper FM reached a little higher), but it was real HiEnd compared to what most listen to today from the ‘streaming’ companies, which is basically hi-bitrate mp3.

Nope, I get 16/44 - 24/192. None of it has any relation to MP3.

[Innocent_Bystander]

@anon60564391

in fact; USB outputs (leaving alone the question of their quality) are under all the volume controls of a PC, they have the file pass through some part of the PCU, and most of all need an onboard software to manage the music (unless the external DAC has ‘streaming’ facilities): from the vituperated iTunes to the celebrated Audirvana, etc. All this is in fact useless. This will only trigger many’s paranoia about bit perfect and so on.

I’m not sure what is the basis of this statement, though maybe a MacBook is different from a Mac Mini as quite a few use. (5 volume controls??? ) When running Audirvana in its optimum direct mode and with a dedicated USB bus the Mac’s sound hardware and software are bypassed (no Mac volume control), a bitperfect digital music stream being output to whatever DAC is connected - though as previously mentioned also including spurious unwanted RF noise needing blocking/filtering out to avoid modulation effects in the DAC. And the result, with RF blocked, using the same DAC, sounds better from Mac Mini / Audirvana from than an ND5XS fed by either a NAS or the same Mac Mini serving by UPnP.

Welcome back, by the way!

[frenchrooster]

perhaps we can say that computer audio is dead or quite dead but computer specialized in audio is the major source nowadays.
Melco, nas, streamers, …are specialized computers in fancy cases .

[anon60564391]

My music is physically stored on my MacBook Pro. The ND5 XS2 reads and renders it. If language still has a sense, my MacBook Pro is the source. I see that it still isn’t worth discussing the use of words, unless, like Voltaire is reported to have said, ‘if you want to discuss with me, first define your terms’. My MacBook Pro is the source, as are the unknown, innumerable servers which actually contains the music you enjoy on Tidal. But let’s call the thing off: I already regret having come back.

[Xanthe]

I agree that the definition of terms is necessary to this discussion, which is why I previously clarified my understanding of the term (in post 45).

[frenchrooster]

personally i am a bit confused by all the different terms used in digital audio today. Before it was transport and dac. Today it’s : server, transport, streamer, renderer, dac, end point, source, …

[Innocent_Bystander]

The question is, what is the definition of computer audio? I suggested, and as I think did Xanthe, that it probably best covers using a general purpose computer to play music, but meaning through a hifi system not just computer speakers. And my view of that is by implication trying to get good quality sound.

Melco etc are indeed computers inside, as is Uniti core …,and Naim streamers, but I think don’t count as they can’t be used for anything else, so the fact that they are computers effectively is hidden from the user.

But from the other angle, to me computer audio also requires going beyond being just a store functioning like a NAS, because that does not produce or modify the music unless, just holds if and gives it to the external device that processes the file.

As for how alive and well it is, perhaps that question should look at how many members the Computer Audio forum has (recentlh oddly renamed Audiophile Style).

[frenchrooster]

i would tend to think that the source is the origin of the music, where the music is stored. So the mac for me is the source in that way of thinking.

[frenchrooster]

Or computer for audio ?
As for the ex computer audio site, Michael Lavorgna left it. The new manager named it differently probably.
However i prefer the term audiophile style but prefer Michael Lavorgna reviews…

[Innocent_Bystander]

JBy that argument, the LP or CD is the source in vinyl and CD based systems. Which is true, but in terms of hifi system it is the player converting that to an analog electrical signal that has a major effect on sound, and what people refer to as source in the context of system. The trouble is that in streaming the components can be separated into store/server, renderer and DAC (maybe even further split sometimes). Of these the store I think is closer to the storage medium, leaving renderer and DAC as the source(s) - simple when combined, as in a Naim streamer, but when separated as when the renderer is in the store, with a separate DAC, the latter is usually the part having the biggest effect on sound quality at the front end of the system, so is the DAC the part best considered as the source, being the source of the analog signal?

[Ardbeg10y]

@anon60564391

vituperated

Thanks for this word, very useful in day-to-day work. Lets see if can get the word to stick on some colleagues …

[anon60564391]

Unless one thinks that the warbling on the vinyl surface is just an uninterrupted spiral scratch, and the source is the phono stage, I’d tend to consider an LP a source. Is our brain our source of speech, or the vocal cords?

Anyway, an interesting reading from someone who actually works on the field:

Different players have different features and it is with these that I find sonic differences can arise.

For example, if one were to adjust the playback level or apply on-the-fly sample rate conversion or any other process, sonic differences in the “engines” would manifest themselves.

I’ve said before that I have taken files I ripped using iTunes (all my CDs are ripped to .aif format with iTunes’ error correction turned on) and compared them directly with the masters used to create the CDs from which the files were ripped. What I found was the files, in every case, were identical.

I could place the ripped file and a master file into my mastering software, synchronize them perfectly, invert the polarity of one file, then listen to the results of the two combined files. (This is called a null test.) the results contain only what is different between the files. They can then be amplified to see (and hear) what is different between the files. If the files are identical (perfectly identical), the result would be a null, i.e., the result would contain nothing at all.

That is exactly what I’ve gotten with all the files I’ve ripped into iTunes and compared against the masters used to create the CDs from which the files were ripped. In other words, the rip is the equivalent of the master. As a result, this leads me to think any departure is by definition, a departure from the master - regardless of whether anyone likes it more.

Yet, folks tell me they hear differences in the applications with just straight playback. I have a number of different “server” apps on my machine and though there have been times I thought I heard a difference, further testing has shown me that I can’t reliably do so and the apps are in effect, sonically equal - at least to my ears, so far.

I’ve also used my gear to capture the output from the different apps playing the same file, from a point just ahead of the DAC chip in my converters, then performed null tests on each of the files against the master as well as against each other. In every case, a null was achieved.

Do I think sonic differences are impossible? No. I just haven’t heard any yet and have not been able to conceive of a mechanism by which sonic differences might arise. Of course, sonic differences don’t require my being able to conceive of a mechanism for their existence. ;-}

So, I keep listening but so far, the only differences I’ve experienced are not sonic. (I do not apply processing of any kind when listening and I adjust level in the analog domain.) Where some other apps do have an “advantage” is when playing files of different sample rates. With iTunes, to hear a file at its native rate (my preferred way to listen), I must quit the program, open Audio/MIDI Setup and adjust the sample rate to that of the next file I wish to play, then re-launch iTunes to play the file. Some of the other programs will switch sample rates automatically to follow the native rate of the file being played.

On a related note, I have heard differences between different CDs created from the same master, i.e., containing identical data. However, it should be remembered that when playing a CD, there are a lot of processes that occur just to get to the data. (There are no “ones and zeros” on a CD but instead, nine different length “pits” from which the data must be decoded.) When these CDs are ripped to the computer’s hard drive, all the sonic differences disappear. I’ve never heard a CD, even among the very best pressings, that I’ve found indistinguishable from the master used to create it. The story changes completely when the CD is ripped to the computer. On the computer, it effectively is the master.

Best regards,

Barry

Soundkeeper Recordings

Barry Diament Audio