Have they each heard yours but prefer theirs, or have no preference?
Theyāve heard my system but not really listened. I used to invite friends to listen to some music. Invariably it would begin with me proudly putting on something I believe theyād like as much as myself, but within moments they would begin talking over the music, prompting me to either turn the volume down or suggest they listen now and talk later. As a typical English host, I tended to listen to the conversation, turn down the volume and give up sharing my hi-fi moments. When visiting them; I recognise their pride as itās like my own, so I quietly listen to what they wish us to hear and I praise the albums or say how lovely a track is; that way Iām not saying I would rather hear it at home but neither am I praising their systems. Truth is if they do believe my system is far superior, they have never said so. It really appears that there is little difference to their ears! When they visit me now I no longer invite them into the lounge where my pride and joy resides. Instead we go into the dining room - next to the kitchen so handy for tea making - and if I put any music on it tends to be Radio Paradise via my Mu-so, loud enough to hear and quiet enough to converse.
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You say you wonāt be unkind pointing out the obvious in terms of difference with your system, but perhaps to them it is not a positive difference, or they donāt hear it - but from your description of their behaviour it sounds more as if to their ears yours is the inferior system. In what way is your system better to you?
Why not take a different approach, inviting them not to listen to music from your system as you say you have, but actually starting a discussion about how different music sounds between the three hifi systems? In doing that you can point out what you hear and see if they hear it, and discuss the merits, inviting them to do the same with their systems. That isnāt being unkind, rather it is part and parcel of hifi appreciation. It may be that they donāt hear what you do, or simply prefer music the way their systems play it - without that exploration with them you will never know!
BTW, when you say Nautilus, do you mean the original helical transmission line Nautilus itself, or one of the subsequent Nautilus 800 range, since replaced by the current 800 series? If the original then if nothing else I would have expected hifi enthusiasts to have been very interested, even fascinated, and really want to hear how it performs: Certainly I have always admired it and would love to hear some time, imagining it would be great. (The only B&Ws Iāve heard were the 802D2, but they werenāt for me as I preferred the then comparably priced PMC MB2).
I know the feeling. The truth is, the vast majority of people donāt like music enough to concentrate on what is playing for more than a few seconds. After that, they get bored. And consequently, they have no time for sound systems.
I may be biased, but I feel that Naim has a higher percentage of its customers who are music lovers (as opposed to audiophiles) than the vast majority of its competitors. And not surprisingly, this forum has a higher percentage of music lovers than any other hifi forum or FB group Iāve seen. This is all gut feeling, of course, I have no hard data to support my theory.
Which leads me to the OPās question. To me, Naim and the Forum are inseparable: Naim would not be the same Naim without the forum, and the forum would not be the same forum without Naim. So IMO the question is purely rhetorical (but very interesting nonetheless).
Claude
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Thought experiments are more interesting when non binary.
Perhaps the scenario of another Naim forum only using the French language - with a very strict pedantic moderator ?
Focul forum?
I agree on that, even though music and gear have to go on pair somehow. A good system makes me appreciate certain types of music more. Without the system, this does not happen.
However in the end music is always the first thing that matters to me and my Hi-Fi let me access that enjoyment. Without a proper music reproduction, I wouldnāt enjoy it at the same level for sure and would not be able to appreciate so many details. Thereās a big difference between listening to music and living / experiencing it.
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In the great scheme of things neither are important and I have been a NAIM user for 51 years come August. Not sure how many people actually use the forum but it is the same names that crop up regularly and have an active participation which seems to be only about 100 or so, maybe I am wrong in that. Would I miss the forum, probably not as we would all move on to other forums as I am sure a fair number of people on here are already members of. Regarding the brand there becomes a certain point in time when you lose touch with your customer base and personally think that NAIM have gone past that barrier sometime back and thatās why they are finding it difficult in a very competitive market. Their sales figure year on year dropping show that.
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Iād like to pick up on @Richard.Daneās point with regard to, shall we say, the spirit of the Forum.
When I first started engaging in the Ether with regard to music/hi-fi it was on another forum which was actually a great fun environment, but always had the propensity to self-destruct, and its rebelliousness would often overspill, it saw itself as an almost anti-christ in hi-fi land, was deeply cynical about the Naim brand simply because of the success, and cable fights, well donāt go there!
That Forum has since imploded, and then collapsed, but this gathering is still going strong. In common with just about everything across the global economy at the moment the hi-fi industry will face many challenges, far less disposable income amongst all levels of wealth, and keeping up with the advancing technologies is a constant challenge. Now if I visited Salisbury, and went back into my former HR/consultancy/facilitator mode (yes sad life!) and ran a corporate development seminar Iād typically start with who is optimistic for the future and who not, and I get the room would be divided.
But Iād take this view, of course a change of ownership will always prompt more uncertainty, but Lotus, Aston Martin, Bentley etc have all been through the same and done well as a niche brand. Despite the undoubted challenges why wonāt Naim? Whether itās at Muso or Statement level we need to hear good music, and a place to discuss it all.
Time for coffee, with Radio 3!
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There are usually currently around 1,500 registered members who visit each day, with 350-400 of those who actively engage in some way that day.
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Thatās a much higher number than I thought in levels of daily participation. Meant to say I even had a period of setting up NAIM/Linn system in the early 80ās.
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The nice thing about the Discourse platform is the stat reporting.
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Wowā¦ terrible implosion indeed!
Claude
Implosion??
That was a humorous comment, I was referring to the earlier post that said the forum āhad since imploded and then collapsedā. 1,500 visiors daily with 350-400 actions is anything but an implosion.
Claude
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Yes, quite. The forum has had some ups and downs in the short term (and really spiked during Covid, as you might imagine) but has overall grown fairly steadily.
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TBF I think the implosion comment was referring to a different forum not this one.
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Indeed it was and itās quite clear.
Ah sorryā¦ it seems it was still not clear enough for me 
Claude
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Thanks for your response; it made me think more 3 diamensionally than previously.
My system is better to me because I have updated and improved it over the years like most music lovers do, to my taste. As a teenager I was happy to buy a second hand record player with plug in speakers but by my early twenties was frustrated with the fact I couldnāt hear my records properly. Having grown up with a father who loved music and had enjoyed his high quality sound system, it was time to save up and get some āproperā hi-fi.
Through my twenties and early thirties I gradually improved my system one item at a time as I could afford to. By reading hi-fi magazines followed by numerous demonstrations, it gradually improved - to my ears - until for a while I was satisfied. Then along came CD Players.
I wanted nothing to do with CDs, considering digital sound inferior, less real and hoped vinyl was here to stay for those of us who didnāt want to switch. Then I won a competition. First to phone in with the answer; The Psychedelic Furs, my prize was Lou Reed on CD. Well I listened to Lou on a ghetto blaster style CD player and was so disappointed.
This sent me rushing first to the newsagents for magazines, then to my favourite Hi-fi store to find out just what was available to play CDs on which would sound acceptable. With 3 systems the store had on offer, I took a long afternoonās listening to choose my DAC pre amp and CD drive, (Meridian 500 series) then the next day took out my first ever bank loan to buy these asap. I think I still preferred my LP12 and vinyl, but realised the hard fact that vinyl LPs were less available than CDs and I just had to accept changes were coming whether I liked it or not.
By then Iād put my Arc 050s in store for a time when I might move to a larger home and maybe want a second system. In their place Iād been lucky enough to buy a pair of Altec 604-8g speakers which were admired by all my friends and - to my ears - sounded better than any other speakers.
Having a bespoke cabinet made to my design, by a very talented craftsman: it housed my first LP12, along with the Meridian system, a power amp and tuner, but with further upgrades to my system it became redundant, with the possibility Iād reunite the Arc speakers with these in the future.
Having thought for years the Altec speakers would be mine till I die, my opinion changed with the opportunity to replace them with the Nautilus speakers and so aside from changes to accessories such as cartridge and cable updates, at that point I got to where I am now a couple of years ago with all amplifiers Naim, then a Linn CD12, a new LP12 and Tukan speakers for rear sound.
To my ears this was/is my best system, but you are spot on when you suggest my friends may think that their systems sound better. A long time friend had an old system, rather basic, but he was very happy with it; until his amplifier malfunctioned and blew his speakers. Having had a run of bad luck he used to immerse himself in sound to take time out from all the negative issues he was dealing with. So, when he had no working system to play his music on it was devastating. So of course I offered him my old system and he was very happy to have it. Remembering how much Iād loved those Arc speakers when I bought them - having taken as much care to choose them as I did my first CD player, and every other item since - it occurred to me that they were a good match for my friend who loves listening to prog rock, heavy metal and R&B at high volumes.
As I said at the start of this, youāve made me think - a lot - and recall that friend often talking about how happy he is with the system. He can turn it up as loud as he wants retaining clarity and a complete absence of distortion, his albums and CDs sound better than previously and so it is - to him - the perfect system. My friend who used to work for Mission helped him set it up at his home; later commenting how heād forgotten how good the Arc speakers had sounded, although he still preferred his Mission 770s.
Which brings me to that friend. About the time I bought my Meridian system he threw away his LP deck, gave away all his vinyl and bought a CD player (I confess I havenāt a clue what it is, but he was/is happy with it). Recently his father died and he received his record deck as a keepsake. That gave him renewed love for music. When we met in 1983 he played a lot of music but in recent years heād become a lover of video gaming and watching Sky TV. His deck inspired him to buy many LPs and to replace his original 770s with Missionās new 770s. He plays fewer video games, watches less TV and has fallen in love with his newly improved music system.
So thank you, I shall invite my friends to have a discussion or two about our different systems, beginning with how music sounds between the 3 systems. While Iāve not heard a home set up I enjoy more than mine, considering your observations, youāve made me think and realise the characters of these individuals does probably suit the systems they have.
Onto the speakers. Sadly I donāt have those original Nautilus speakers launched in 1993 and if I did, Iām as sure as you in expecting any friend who were to see such works of art to be interested, even fascinated by them and keen to have a listen. However, those friends who have seen them have tended to compare them negatively with the Altec speakers. They were larger and most people who saw and heard them were so impressed it seems they donāt understand the replacements are superior by a quantum leap!
The speakers I have, and love are a 1999 pair of 801s. Very humble compared to B&Ws original Nautilus. Iāve not had the pleasure of listening to PMC MB2s but do expect Iād be blown away by such excellent speakers should I ever get to hear some. During my working life I was a nurse, which, for most of my career, was not particularly well paid, although I loved it and wouldnāt have changed it for any amount of money, but it does mean some luxuries are out of reach; but thatās OK. More food for thought. Thereās always going to be superior choices; if we owned a money tree, ha ha.
I will stop being such a snob making foolish assumptions about good or bad, better or worse. If we are enjoying ourselves listening to music on our systems does it matter what others think. No of course not. Music is important and how we enjoy it is irrelevant, just as long as we do enjoy it.
Many moons ago my manager at work read my shift reports and said āwhy use a sentence when a paragraph will doā Hope this wasnāt too long winded?
Thanks again for making me think 
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