Hi T38.45, if you don’t mind telling us, which Nagra pre-amp are you using please?
Nagra is a brand that interests me but I haven’t seen much of it about, oh and it appears they do one box pre’s which is a bonus
hi Roog,
it’s a Melody - so the smallest one they have…no tubes like the big ones:-) So don’t get me wrong- I don’t say that Naim has “bad sounding” pre amps. It’s just that Nagra offers me a different SQ which is more “my taste”!
Things get more interesting though, when you stop thinking of distortion as noise. If instead, you think of the performing hall in a live performance as an extension of the musical instrument, then you can understand the “neutral” sound of a piano for example (which co-evolved with the shoebox concert hall), as only taking place with certain additional harmonics introduced by the room, and not just by the instrument casework. Here’s a fantastic paper that describes how this works: link to free download from PNAS
Anyway, if this is all true, then the “distortion” of tube amps (particularly their output transformers) doesn’t alter the musical instrument, rather completes it by accurately reproducing the absolute sound heard in the intended concert hall listening space! Maybe.
Of course this doesn’t apply to rock, and maybe that’s why some folks talk about Naim preamps being particularly good for rock, and tubes being particularly good for classical?
Just for clarity, by distortions I mean anything that alters the signal in any way from what is in the recording, so not just harmonic or intermodulation distortion etc, but waveform/timing, dynamic range, frequency range and anything else.
Yes a concert hall modifies (or in the above description distorts the sound), as indeed will the listening room no matter how treated, but should the electronics more than can be avoided? Some may say yes (e.g. they like the limited bass, enhanced rhythmic cues, muted sounds, or whatever - which may include the “Naim sound”) but others not - so provide the ‘not’ (as far as technologically possible within the budget) and add selectable choices of ‘sound signature’ - which for Naimis obviously that “Naim sound”.
Of course you would have to have a good enough time as the base to be able to do that! But naybe Bain is there now?
IB, you appear to feel that the sound of Naim kit (pre-amp in this case) is one of distortion or of something “added”. Nothing could be further from the truth. From day one, JV designed the NAC 12 to remove as little music information as possible and add as little distortion as possible. It’s as true today as it was then, although Naim have have learned much along the way, and got better at it over the years.
As for some kind of specially tailored “Naim sound”, no such thing, unless you’re talking about sounding more like actual music, in which case, spot on.
Interesting, though, how some people regard the olive series amps as being more the true “Naim” sound than the more recent priducts, whereas others seem to regard the more recent ones as being better because they are more neutral, so losing some of those characteristics of old.
Perhaps I was wrong, but my interpretation is that over time the original focus on accuracy in the timing aspects above all else resulted in quite significant deviations from accuracy in other parts of the signal, creating a characteristic sound. Then over time other aspects have been improved also (while not letting go of timing as the core need), so overall becoming more neutral.
As for sounding like actual music, that is indeed what we all (?) want out of our systems! And indeed if developments over the years have got closer that is indeed a good thing - however it appears that a proportion, possibly very small, of Naim aficionados prefer the sound of the older gear. A means of offering that in future amps might keep them on board. But then again if may be contrary to Naim philosophy, recognising that things have improved and sticking to the improvements - which is wholly understandable from a music and hifi perspective, if not necessarily from that of marketing.
Hi Innocent
‘actual music’ has always been an odd one for me. There have not been too many times in my life where I have had a great seat/position at a concert where the sound quality has also been top notch. Tallis Scholars at St Johns Hall, Suzanne Vega at Brighton and Steve Miller at the Roundhouse are three that spring to mind (utterly glorious!). Some off the greatest concerts I have attended have had sound quality way below what I would tolerate from any system - let alone a high end one. The recorded quality of live shows is usually much better than what can be experienced as part of the audience - I know as I have recordings of concerts I attended. Even at small venues the sound is more often than not too loud and often dominated by the drums (typically) or another instrument. I greatly enjoy ‘actual music’ as part of the live experience but much of what I enjoy at home is the result of countless hours in the studio and the mixing abilities of the engineers etc. There are some great, often quite raw, ‘live’ studio recordings that I really enjoy (try Sweet Tea by Buddy Guy) and these probably get the closest to ‘actual music’ in your living room - for rock anyway. Classical (particularly Opera) and other non-amplified music probably fare better in the main. No system though will replicate the likes of Black Sabbath or Zed Zeppelin at full throttle - neither would you want it to I suspect. You can enjoy live music and your system as separate experiences in my view. On the pre-amp question it is an absolute necessity in my mind - Naim power amps are designed to be driven by a pre - ideally a Naim one.
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I concur with this interpretation. My first Naim amp (42.5 / 110 / SNAPS) was huge fun but could get a little shouty (or boisterous, depending on perspective). The 72/Hi/180 was better, losing none of the timing, but showing occasional glassiness. An olive 250 fixed the issue, restoring a wonderful sense of groove (that a 250DR did not provide). Now with a 252/SCAP fronting the 250, I’ve reached a level where violins are almost neutral.
Re preamps, I’ve tried replacing the 252 with three different volume controlled DACs (Resonessence Mirus Pro, Metrum Pavane with volume via Roon Core, Merging NADAC). While the most balanced presentation came from the Merging DAC, it could not match the 252 for musical engagement.
Jan
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Thanks for the info on the Chord volume control. It looks like they use 64 bit processor. That would give more options for how to implement the volume control on the digital side and not have the down effects that Naim must be talking about. Since Naim use 40 bits processing, it does seem like a proper digital volume control could be implemented even if it meant truncating to 32/24 bits. From what I read, we are not getting full 24 bit source material yet, more like 20 bits typical on the good stuff.
Cheers
Thank you T38.45 the Melody is one of the pre amps on my list to try so it’s good to know that it works for you.
Well the Nagra Melody is a new product. The review I read just extended my audiophile vocabulary to new heights. They suggested that it had “sonic transparency and exactitude”. Never heard of “Exactitude” before, but it sounds good. Not a proper English term, I am sure. Perhaps we should start a new thread on the definition of Exactitude?
Bailyhill
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This website has a gobbledygook random sentence generator
Does the Nagra have Quasi-orthogonal enabled summing-amplifier.
Alan
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it’s a french term, it means accurate.
It’s a derivative of exact. The OED has this to say:
The quality of being precise or accurate.
‘it is not possible to say with any scientific exactitude what a dream means’
1. 1.1 Care and attention to detail.
‘he writes with exactitude and precision’
Note the last sentence. Exactitude is in addition to precision.
I have no idea what this means for audio.
Homework: compose a sentence with the adjective “exactable.”
i would say the sound is accurate. Even in french language, we are not saying that the sound is exact, or “exactitude “ of the sound, but more that the sound is “ précis “ ( precision).
It’s an English term too. It was famously used (in antonymic form) by Churchill in parliament in the phrase ‘teminological inexactitude’ (i.e. a lie).
ah ok, so can you say in english ‘ the exactitude or inexactitude of the sound “?
I think you would just say ‘accuracy’.
Churchill’s use if such an overblown phrase was intentional, as openly accusing a British MP of lying in Parliament is forbidden and would have resulted in his expulsion from the house.
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Yeah, you could use those phrases, but I doubt you’d find any style guides advising it. In an audio context, as Chris says, accuracy is generally a better word to use. The famous use in parliament was largely for effect, rather than simply him saying what he meant.
I have a freshly-serviced NAP150x between a 272 and Arivas. What do you think an olive 250 would do for my system?