Is the pre-amp a thing of the past?

Would that then suggest that in a purely digital system with an ND555 there would be no SQ difference with a 282 versus a 552?

No, unless the circuitry and layout etc for the signal path for the digital sourced signal is identical.

You could have a power amp with a volume control and one input. What about my TT, CD player, 01 Tuner, TV and anything else? Reel to reel? Forgot ND555!
Douglas.

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Yes for me

If you want one input and output, plus headphone amp this is a good proposition.

https://www.lehmannaudio.com/headphone-amplifiers/home/linear.html

I use mine as a headphone amp, but recently my pre-amp failed so I used it as a one input pre-amp into a power amp. It sounded very nice.

Alan

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Hear hear! I would buy one tomorrow. I’ve been grinding my teeth about the prospect of buying a NAC to fit between my NDX2 and NAP 300DR, when I know most of the circuitry will never be used.

I’d love:

  • one input
  • one output
  • Naim system integration
  • no need for a knob, volume control can be internal. I haven’t gotten up to manually change the volume since the advent of the remote. The level can display on the app, or streamer screen, or remote.
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I agree a top idea. A Naim buffer + optional volume control for sources which do not include built in volume control.

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I have heard Naim’s stance on the preamp, but there are also Naim customers who are streaming only, with no vinyl and may not be able to use a Naim amp. I see many speakers being used by members of the forum, and Naim has no issue with that. If Naim are going to convince a streaming customer to buy a $10-20K volume control, I think they have to make a better case of it. I understand the 18K input impedance spec of their amps may be a problem for some DAC’s as some members have reported. There are a lot of amps with 47K ohm input impedances, same as the Naim preamps, so that should not be an issue, or Naim has to make a better case. I will buy their logic, but I cannot just accept their story without some backup. I expect more and more folks to go without a preamp, or the preamp has to morph into something with more function that I the buyer understand.

Bailyhill

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Hi Chris,
A Naim DAC-V1 perhaps? I adore the sheer musicality of ours.

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As a preamp does far more than volume control and the cost to manufacture 2 inputs or 6 does not vary significantly (most of the cost going into the R&D and the design of the relay - scaling out doesn’t add a huge chunk of cost), I think the argument for a dedicated analogue only preamp has been made. Not to mention the belief that delicate analogue circuits should be isolated from digital circuits and power supplies. You either believe that can be cost effectively achieved in one box or you don’t.

The question is, will Naim follow through on this? They try and stick with what they believe up to a point but are also subject to market forces and as some have correctly said, the need to stay in business.

On the other hand, if you really just supply what most people are after, then followed to it’s logical conclusion, they should get out of hifi and just build iPod docking stations. And I don’t think we see Naim going there, thank goodness.

But they have in fact relinquished some of their hard core principles to market forces so we really just need to see how far they take it. The Uniti range has replaced nearly all entry level pre and power amp combos. In fact, the last 5 years have seen the Naim range shrink drastically. Losing all but one CD player; all tuners; all full width entry level pre/power combos; the XP5xs; speakers and so on.

In fact Naim have by stealth repositioned themselves away from a system builder brand towards separates. With only type of source on offer now (streamers), and no speakers or non legacy active offering, Naim cannot claim to build whole systems anymore. So although I use one source only (streaming) and see the value in a dedicate preamp, I do not think it is a forgone conclusion that Naim stick to their guns.

Personally, I think that making shoe box separates is preferable to single box Uniti items at the Nova and Star price point if one is to make a space saving real hifi solution for the modern, home renting, space challenged customer. I will always prefer the flexibility and upgradeability of separates. And an analogue preamp plays a very big role in that.

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Not for me.

So many options! I already have a Hugo off the NDX, which I quite like. When I’ve finished playing with setup and cabling options on the Allegri, I’ll consider other possibilities, passive or otherwise.
My objective is to find something that sounds better than the 282, or at least as good from a single small box. If I can’t achieve that, I’ll happily stick with the 282.

I suspect that eventually there’ll be an N-DAC replacement with the option of a volume control, resulting in a device like a V1 but at (updated) N-DAC/282 level. Basically a digital preamp, but conceived as a DAC rather than a preamp.

The V1 has always struck me (fairly or unfairly) as not quite ‘proper’; a headphone amp/niche-filler intended as a stop en route to ‘proper’ systems with full-size classic analogue preamps. But those analogue preamps are just ridiculously expensive volume knobs to an increasing number of people. Yes, perhaps they work some magic which produces the Naim sound. But keeping whatever it is that does that bit and adding it to an otherwise dedicated DAC whilst leaving out all the redundant (to digital-only users) analogue inputs etc would surely be more efficient in engineering and cost terms than standalone DACs feeding standalone preamps.

No animosity intended to anyone’s analogue gear - I’m sure it’s wonderful. It’s just the way things are going IMO.

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Well let’s see: A preamp does four things:

  1. Amplify small-signal sources like phono.
    Many, including Naim, often do this in a dedicated additional box. Further, for a digital source, which is already at line-level, this is not necessary.

  2. Filter unwanted out of band frequency content, and common mode noise, from the source input.
    For a digital source, working from a quality recording, neither noise source should be present, and the addition of a preamp might very well introduce these sources of noise. This is the argument for minimizing component count, shortening signal paths, and minimizing features like equalizers, splashy digital screens (which I love!), motorized potentiometers, etc…

  3. Active impedance match (i.e. buffer) the source to the power amp.
    Some sources have a higher output impedance, some power amps have a lower input impedance. Digital sources have analog output stages (the A in DAC) with typically low output impedance, power amps typically have tube (~100kΩ) or transistor (~50kΩ) input impedances. What matters is the ratio of power amp input impedance to source output impedance. This should be as high as possible when driving the former with a voltage presented by the latter, so as to not overload the current-producing capabilities of the source. It should be close to 1, when driving power, as the power amp does with the speaker. Naim streamers have an output impedance of 10Ω, and are spec’d to an input impedance of >10kΩ. Naim power amps have an input impedance of 18kΩ, which should be fine, but may be less optimal than the 47kΩ presented by a Naim pre. On the other hand, many Naim users report excellent results using preamps with lower input impedances. Andrew Everard and Martin Colloms writing for HiFi Critic in a review linked by Naim in their website, use a Constellation Inspiration 1.0 preamp ( 10kΩ RCA input impedance, less than a Naim power amp). Still, maybe they were doing it wrong, and a buffer at the streamer output really would drive the power amp better.

  4. Attenuate the signal (i.e. volume control) to the desired listening level.
    Andrew Everard and Martin Colloms writing for HiFi Critic, also use a Townshend Allegri passive preamp (presumably not in series with the Constellation preamp, though they don’t say, and don’t distinguish between the sound from the two preamps in their review). The Allegri doesn’t do 1-3 above, but it does 4. I’m not sure I understand how a physical device that introduces wires, solder connections, RCA jacks, interconnects, and so on, can sound better than lossless digital volume control which has none of the above. Rob Watts seem to agree:

“With the appropriate bit width and noise shaping/dithering strategies, a perfectly transparent distortion-free volume function is possible… The benefit of digital volume is transparency since an analogue volume control also has low-level (and some high signal level) distortion issues.”

Based on all this many of us, or me at least, are thoroughly confused. 1-2 shouldn’t matter for those of us who only stream. 4 should be better in a DAC than a physical volume knob, I don’t care how precious the wiper, ladder, or transformer. So we’re left with 3, as the only thing a preamp might do for those of us who only use a streamer. Possibly 4, if Naim’s digital volume implementation isn’t as good as Chord’s. I think that’s what many of us on this thread are asking for: a 252 or 552 caliber buffer, with one DIN input and output, possibly internal volume control, system integration, separate box for the power supply.

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That is exactly what i am waiting for on a 372 or 572 or what ever number Naim wants to put on it. I only do digital, I don’t even have any physical media any more, thus waiting to upgrade my 272. I already purchased a 555 DR while waiting for it to happens and improve the performance of the 272. I am giving Naim this year, if not, moving to a different brand.

I doubt that Naim will build such a system with the SQ of a ND555…they’ll do seperates instead I’m afraid…

I don’t think the V1 was developed as a stepping stone in Naim’s separates upgrade path. Rather, it was aimed very specifically at those who wanted to use a computer as an audio source, and sits apart from the main streamer/DAC + separate preamp range.
Of course, if anyone can make it work well in a different setup, so much the better.

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Yes, I agree, ‘a stop en route’ was a poor choice of words, but the point is that although with the V1 there is a DAC with volume control/digital preamp in the Naim range, there isn’t a ‘proper’ one, ie full size, Classic range, at N-DAC/282 or similar level for those who don’t want/need analogue sources. I’m sure the V1 is lovely and great at its job, but the above isn’t its job. I think it likely that a device will come along which does do that job.

I don’t think Naim will release a stand-alone preamp with 1 channel. But I do think they might release something along the lines of a 372 with no analogue inputs or an NDX2/N-DAC with a proper volume control.

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Can’t help feeling that I may have wasted a lot of money on my 552 if I continue to use ND555 as a sole source based on this discussion. Correct?

Not at all - you’ve spent a huge amount of money on something which presumably makes you blissfully happy. Only if that isn’t the case has the money been wasted in comparison with spending it on any similar alternative. And that would apply regardless of this discussion or any other.