Is the pre-amp a thing of the past?

Hello Perizoqui

If there is a variable gain stage (analog) after the DAC, I agree with you. Same as if there was a Potentiometer after the DAC. But is that how its done? Reading on the subject suggests that some designs out there truncate the digital word in the 24/32/40 bit processor before the a/d. This cuts down the dynamic range, snr, and resolution. Some other digital volume designs feed the analog signal into a resistive ladder network, and then use transistor switches to select where on the ladder the volume is set. With Naimā€™s 100 steps, it sounds like this is what they do. Anyone remember reading how Naim does it in the ND555? It did not seem to be in Steve Sells white paper.

From what I hear when I ran straight thru, the lower level hall ambiance and air around the instruments was lost. So I hear what Naim contends, that SQ suffers when you go thru the variable volume out.

Perhaps Naim uses some other scheme.

Bailyhill

maybe we should start a new thread: Non Naim Pre with Naim Power Amp (NNPwNPA) :slight_smile:

Go on then! Iā€™d be interested to hear if anyone has really ditched a Naim pre for a different brand and felt it sounded better.

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I did, and yes- it sounds better:-) coming from 282 later 252 and now Nagra. I always felt that Naimā€™s pre amps are limited in terms of higher frequences and resolutionā€¦

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@T38.45 what constitutes the rest of your system?Sorry if listed earlier in the thread
thx

ND555, Nagra Pre, 250DR, Sopra 2, Innuos Zenā€¦I had HDX, NDX, 200, 180, 282, 252, Linn Klimax pre/power/ KDS, Mcintosh 275/MC2500, Nait CBā€¦

Ahh, NDS as wellā€¦and Devialet, Regaā€¦,I skipped the phono preā€˜sšŸ˜€, MSB Analog DAC, Playback Designsā€¦Nim DAC, Naim S600, Dynaudio, B&W Diamondā€¦hmm, guess that was everythingā€¦apart LP12

Hi T38.45, I see that you have been through a few fine naim pre amps and yet you currently have a Nagra.
What brought you to buying the Nagra? And how does it compare the the nacā€™s?

Ah yes, sorry, didnā€™t realize you were referring to digital volume. In the case of Naim they add 8 bits to take a 32 bit input up to 40 before doing any volume-related processing. Given your input is unlikely to be higher than 24 bits, theyā€™re adding a full 16 bits. Digital attenuation could then be up to 16 bits with no theoretical loss in resolution. Without knowing exactly how Naim does it, I canā€™t say more, but itā€™s certainly possible to do the volume in the digital domain without any loss of resolution. Up to a point. I think this is why folks like Naim say that itā€™ll suffer particularly at very low volumes. Chord does it differently, so they claim itā€™s better than analog, which theoretically it should be.

Nagra is more open, very 3d like, transparent without being coldā€¦ and it does great in a compact format as one box. Most of my time Iā€™m listening to barock music, classical and jazz. On my list were Pass and Sugden as well, for a one box Nagra Int and Soulution 330. Some day I would love to listen to 552 in my setup.

Such a shame the only thing you havenā€™t tried is a 552.

as T38 A5, i had 252 before. Now ear 912. For me the ear pre gave also more 3d like quality, nicer tones, and more fluency, without sacrificing dynamics.
I would like also to try the 552, but itā€™s 2 times more expensive and has not built in phono.

I am hopeful that Naim pre and power amps will continue to be available; and to be developed. Maybe weā€™ll even be treated to replacements for the 552 and 500 family!

From a naim factory visit last year it was apparent that there is a huge focus being applied to the digital consumer market - both for research and production. Like Porsche have done with the Cayenne and Macan, Naim have done with the one box products which must surely provide the main cash flow revenues desperately required to maintain their existance. But, like Porsche, Naim need to run their aspirational lines of separates (911ā€™s and Caymans in Porscheā€™s case) as exemplars of what they are capable of.

I suspect that Naim may have over reached the market with the Statement range which provides colossal engineering at a price point which sits well outside the budgets of mere mortals and I suspect there will be second thoughts given at board level as to the merits of the investment required vs returns. And I guess this thread is asking - but do they need to do so?

I have a cd player and record player and, apart from my first naim single box nait, have developed around the multiple box approach. My speakers demand a bit of power, so all things considered, the mutli box set up suits me just fine.

Whilst I get that the new generation of single box products provide a great quality sound against the competition, I think there is a decent argument to be had around the sheer speed of development of digital music and the redundancy it imposes. The NDS was a top line digital product - many still revere its qualities however, with the advent of the ND555, sound quality has significantly moved on in the digital sector. To the point where an NDS sold on fleabay in recent weeks for less than Ā£3,000 - the particular model was less than a year old. That represents one heck of a hit. Dealers may be able to offer more attractive incentives, but digi tech can be financially cruel for those who wish to keep pace with it.

Whilst I am not contending that the NDS is no longer relevant, you can see that the model cycle/ speed of development may raise questions about the investment required for the ND555 and how long it will be king of the naim pile. This is not a criticism of Naim - Nikon and Canon suffer similar redundancies of their models in the digital slr market making the cost per year ownership of such top line products relatively high.

Imagine if a top line one box product were to be offered - within a couple of years the whole unit could become a relative antiquity because of the digital element becoming old tech. This is coming from an ignoramous who has no knowledge of the digital products future development cycle - Iā€™m simply assuming there will be more of the same for the next 5-10 years. Much better to be able to upgrade the pre-amp and power amps aka DR and take a hit on the digital box, than chuck the whole lot away.

All this from someone who has just ordered a HomePodā€¦!!

Peter

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Fully agree! Digital runs fastā€¦thatā€˜s why I donā€˜t want a digital/analog amp or pre. I would go analog only with the flexibility to change the digital source if something new comes up.

My head hurts. Iā€™m having a beer,

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Hereā€™s the thing, if they drop analogue pots and pres and it sounds like Naim still, it wonā€™t be an issue. Though there will be questions about the philosophy so far since that analogue DNA is largely credited with being the pillar that their sound is on.

If they drop it and the Naim sound changes, it is likely that they will get a new (hopefully larger) customer following that prefer it, shed much of the current following, and keep the die-hard fanboys who would buy anything with a Naim badge on it.

An alternative with real potential to increase sales and keep everyon happy: Maybe Naim could design a preamp with minimal distortions of any type (absolutely as neutral as possible, with accurate timing, but nothing emphasised or deemphasised) ā€“ and add a button to switch in the ā€œNaim soundā€ for those who want it. Or better still, a control to dial in the desired amount. That would open the market to people who just want the best neutral sound as accurate as possible, and to the diehard aficionados of the old sound from decades ago, and everybody between!

Hi T38.45, if you donā€™t mind telling us, which Nagra pre-amp are you using please?

Nagra is a brand that interests me but I havenā€™t seen much of it about, oh and it appears they do one box preā€™s which is a bonus

hi Roog,
itā€™s a Melody - so the smallest one they haveā€¦no tubes like the big ones:-) So donā€™t get me wrong- I donā€™t say that Naim has ā€œbad soundingā€ pre amps. Itā€™s just that Nagra offers me a different SQ which is more ā€œmy tasteā€!

Things get more interesting though, when you stop thinking of distortion as noise. If instead, you think of the performing hall in a live performance as an extension of the musical instrument, then you can understand the ā€œneutralā€ sound of a piano for example (which co-evolved with the shoebox concert hall), as only taking place with certain additional harmonics introduced by the room, and not just by the instrument casework. Hereā€™s a fantastic paper that describes how this works: link to free download from PNAS

Anyway, if this is all true, then the ā€œdistortionā€ of tube amps (particularly their output transformers) doesnā€™t alter the musical instrument, rather completes it by accurately reproducing the absolute sound heard in the intended concert hall listening space! Maybe.

Of course this doesnā€™t apply to rock, and maybe thatā€™s why some folks talk about Naim preamps being particularly good for rock, and tubes being particularly good for classical?