Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.
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Back to the original tpoic, the more I think about it, the more pointless it is.
- Either the user thinks pre-amps have no place in modern hi-fi; in which case they are under no obligation to buy one from Naim or anywhere else.
- Naim also decide the dedicated pre-amp has had its day and simply discontinue the current ones when demand drops (as per CD players).
- The user does think a dedicated pre-amp is still critical and is free to purchase one from Naim, or if they stop making them, from another brand.
Either way, options remain to keep whichever side of the fence you are on happy.
Sure, but I would encourage the user to listen before deciding what they think. Iām astonished by the difference the preamp made in my system. Never expected it.
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Yeah sure. But proverbs about leading horses to water spring to mind.
We started our Naim experience with the Nait5i. It was a show demo bought from NANA in Indianapolis in 2006 or so and a good buy. The 5i was an entry level Naim amp and a passive preamp section on board. It was lame unless you turned it way up. We later upgraded to the NaitXS. It was the same, pretty much, plus 10 WPC, except it had an active preamp section. It was daylight and dark different from the Nait5i. It got better yet with the FlatcapXS. We are still running the XS system 8 or 9 years later and it totally rocks. We use a CD5X (driven by the FlatcapXS) and a Meridian Explorer DAC. We have the nSats and the factory stands to complete the system.
This was the lesson to me: No more passive preamps. The preamp is your friend. Utilize the outside wall. Yes to power supply upgrades. Just follow the trail, measure your progress, and the top of the mountain will be at your feet before you know it.
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Thanks for the lively debate on this thread. I am reading with interest.
G
There are two different questions being discussed in this thread, albeit related:
-
is there still merit in separating out the amplification into two boxes, pre and power?
-
Does a preamp make a positive difference where a source is capable of driving a power amp withou using a pre? [but unspoken: preamp = as currently implemented, with power amps as currently implemented]
Regarding the first question, I donāt think anyone has either countered or bettered my argument earlier in this thread (post 8, on the first day), namely that it depends on whether sources include low level signals, the challenge with low level signals being the original reason for separating out into pre- and power-. In that post I included a suggestion for what would be a better approach given that many sources these days are high level, unlike when the splitting originally became recognised as desirable.
As for the second question, it almost certainly will depend at least in part on the source and the power amp in question (their characteristics and how they interact), and on whether the preamp under consideration adds a sound signature that the listener likes. And of course that can only be determined for certain by hearing: hearing the specific source and power amp, with and without a preamp, and likely differing with different preamps.
For myself I compared Hugo into Bryston power amp direct compared to through a Tag MacLaren preamp, and found no obvious difference (I didnāt do extensive comparisons) so I simply went for the direct route, and when replaced Hugo with Dave nothing made me feel any need to try a preamp, it sounding so good. One day I might be tempted to hear Naim power amps in my system, and if I do then that would be an obvious time to try a Naim pre - but at present with no Naim dealer in reach it wonāt happen, and a NAC is an awful lot of money for a buffer/modifier!
Hello Innocent_Bystander
I agree with your above statement, but as Perizoqui and I have both found out and been discussing here, it depends strongly on the implementation of the volume control in the DAC. DAVE seems to have gone to great lengths to make it as good as possible while Naim has apparently not in the ND555 nor their other streamers for good reason I am sure.
I was in the no preamp camp, but did the experiment and my ND555 definitely is better with preamp, and I am matching impedanceās properly. I also noticed this affect a lot more with HiRes music and much less with Core ripped CDās. I have not switched to the Needs Preamp camp with most of todays equipment. That might change in the future as design topologies change.
Bailyhill
So what will you put up with?
Besides, didnāt Naim once say they implemented volume control on streamers simply to tick a required box for one of the certifications?
Yes that is right, it was for Apple AirPlay, I believe.
Bailyhill
IB, the TAG MacLaren preamp circuit is quite flat in presentation (even after the switch from a TL82 to an OPA2134 as the line driver). It doesnāt surprise me that you didnāt hear much of a difference (in fact It wouldnāt have surprised me if the direct connection had sounded better).
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Too temptingā¦
Counter argument: all sources include low level signals. Some (i.e. phono stages) contain lower voltage signals than others (i.e. streamers). But! Itās not the voltage that matters most, rather the current. Whether milivolts (phono stage) or up to a volt or so (streamer), a source is driving a Naim preamp (47 kĪ©) or tube (>100kĪ©) load. So youāre talking very small numbers of microamps (I=V/R). By comparison a power amp is driving a few volts into a 2-8 Ī© load. Youāre talking amps.
Itās current that generates magnetic fields when traveling through the traces in the PCB and wire jumpers to the output speaker terminals. Those fields (like the ones from power transformers), are what couple all over the place, in particular contaminating the tiny aforementioned source signals traveling from the input to their PCB and then along those traces to the first gain stage.
So itās just as important to separate the power amp from the preamp as it is to separate the power supply from either.
As to your second point, the question is whether the source has the drive capability (effectively a built-in preamp) to do the job. Some (Chord Dave) seem to (though I havenāt tried). The Naim NDX 2 clearly does not.
By placing the volume/linedriver in the preamp it gets its own power-supply that can be optimized rather than placing it with the high-current environment in the power-amp.
If you place it in the streamer you steal valuable power-supply feeds from that function. And you need to duplicate it for every source, CD ā¦ RIAA ā¦
Then you have the 272 which I think is a very musical box. But however nice I think it is, it is a compromise.
So unless you go completely software like Devialet the preamp is well motivated in hi-end Naim, especially when you listen to it.
As for the ānaim-soundā it is not a distortion, it is the result of optimising the information transfer with grear care on earthing and separte fast/powerful power supplies for each stage and this allows bass/kick/hihat dont duck/mask each other ā¦ i.e. sound more rythmical and musical. In addition all components are carefully selected by the same priorities. CB/Olive has a skightly different priority and was designed for those times. The circuits used in all Naim power amps up to 250/135 at least is based on an old quite simple AB design, it is the execution of it and context it is placed in (provided by naim) that makes it sound special.
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Iāve not said anything on this thread as I think people will have their strong views and may even have experimented to confirm.
Personally over many years, even decades, of experience building my own system I initially did not invest as much in the Pre in the thought that it was ājust a volume controlā but friends that had spent a lot more on good Pre in their systems got better results than me, even though I had a better source, power Amp and speakers than they did - so I came to think there was more to it.
Tried passive-Pre - not for me - gave a gutless bass-light sound which had no dynamic stability or floor to the performance which I like to experience.
My first real quality Pre - surprisingly perhaps - was the 552. It did everything I wanted to the system performance compared to my very early NAC12 and Exposure Pre I had until then. After that the rest of my system got up-grades gradually as funds presented around the 552 as the heart of my system and I never felt anything was missing.
Then came the chance to audition the S1 Pre. This was silly money and came at a time I though I needed to really confirm it was the right way to go, given the possibility of implementing a digital pre ā¦etc. I had a few demos of another manufacturers all-digital pre ā¦and was underwhelmed would be too kind a thing to say - it had nothing going for it but a sterile bland presentation. The 552 was in a different league.
The S1 Audition - in the context of my otherwise by then ābottom-heavyā system with three NAP500 Active showed that as good as the 552 was (it is very good) it was totally outclassed in every respect by the S1 Pre which was silly-better. I now have one. I do not recommend a demo of this item unless you can afford it as it will upset you if you do the comparison - but at its price perhaps it is no surprise and makes the 552 a bargain!
So IMO not a thing of the past - if you actually try it in your system.
As an engineer and scientist I could identify multiple things why it is important - first large gain stage after pre - very good analogue volume control - fewer LF poles so very good bass supported by superb PSU, input isolation and bufferingā¦it all adds up - but it is theory and conjecture until you try a good Pre - it does not need to be 552 but any good Pre in the range below in the right system context will reveal what it brings if you listen to the music.
DB.
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I have always thought that in Naimland the preamp was key. Nothing has changed this belief over the years. That is precisely why I refuse to listen to a 552. I canāt afford one! And as for the S1ā¦
Stu
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I totally agree, if the Preamp becomes redundant, then so has Naimās strategy on how to achieve the best replay. The Preamp/NAC is the most essential component and heart of a Naim system. It sets the standard for the rest of your system.
Without a preamp how are you going to enjoy the various characters from your different sourcesā¦
If you want an all in one, get a Sonos, or prefereably a Mu-so, if you want to appreciate high end audio replay and its various characters get a system like a Naimā¦ certainly itās the path I have chosenā¦ and Naimās strategy of hooking new customers with all-in-1ās who then wish to look forward and upgrade to preamps and separates I understand is hugely successful for the company.
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@Darkebear @Simon-in-Suffolk I couldnāt agree more.
The NAC552 is amazing and I just canāt imagine what a S1 could do.
I mainly use Matrix Sabre Pro and Chord Hugo DACs.
Both pretty good DACs and both have volume control, so I experimented with each directly into the power amp, in the hope of reducing box count.
Both sounded deeply horrible in comparison to using a dedicated pre-amp. Experiment didnāt need to last long.
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It would nice to hear a bit more from Naim (@Richard.Dane) about the importance of the preamp.
To my earsā¦ the clue is in what Naim actually call it, Naim audio control (NAC 282,NAC 552), and indeed I now understand that the preamp is the key what Naim are able to achieve with their amplifiers in terms of Rhythm and Pacing.
I donāt think that Naim could charge so much for even a NAC 282, if it all it was doing was a volume control !
What I do hear when listening to music through a Naim amplifier is the grip over the music, in other wordsā¦ controlā¦