I feel that source first is often too literally understood. Source first doesn’t mean that you can have the best source possible associated to the worst amps and speakers.
You can’t focus only on source without regarding the balance of the system, quality of the electronics to reveal the source, room integration, well matched amp/ speakers combo.
All is important, even if the source is the first in the chain.
Of course, IMO.
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Exactly right FR. It is so often taken far too literally. When the term source first is used, it doesn’t mean put everything in the source and forget about the rest. It’s just about system hierarchy that prioritises the source on the basis that nothing further along the chain can replace information lost at source, and that any small issue, fault or failing with the source might well be exposed through superior electronics and speakers (i.e. loss of beneficial masking).
It’s nothing to get to too riled about or worry about because you’ve done things the other way 'round. It’s just something to bear in mind when you go about assembling a home system so you don’t make costly mistakes that leave your source out its depth, which is the one sure way of ending up with a lacklustre system that you’ll either eventually lose interest in, or will end up demanding what should have been there in the first place; a better source.
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I would agree with this too, and I would add that there is also a chronological sense to the term when building a separates system. Start with the best source you can afford, and the chances are you will choose a preamp, power amp and speakers that do it justice.
All too often here we see people buying expensive speakers, then discovering that in the Naim world, you need to blow the budget on a power amp, maybe a 300, to drive them properly. Then people throw a fit when everyone on the forum points out how much a well matched power amp and PSU is going to cost them, never mind the source.
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Where source first really comes in is when upgrading. If you have a really nicely balanced system and decide to upgrade, the front end is the place to start. This ensures that the front is not shown up by improvements down the line. After the source, the preamp follows next, then the power amp and finally the speakers. As has been said it’s nothing to stress about, and sometimes a bargain appears that means that balance is lost for a while.
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Actually, my recollection of the joke is different: a composite photo of an LP12 with no arm, a knitting needle, and a mono radio cassette player as an illustration of how not to spend 300 GBP on a HiFi system.
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But @anon4489532 that’s not quite how you’ve done it. Haven’t you secured those gorgeous SL2s and optimized around them? In any event great result.
Regards,
Lindsay
Exactly! That’s why I said that occasionally you see a bargain and the balance may be lost for a while. I went into it my my eyes wide open.
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Source first isn’t so much about balance, as it is a relatively simple truth - nothing further down the chain can improve on the source. Changing speakers will (probably) make the most noticeable change to any even moderately good system- so some may think it is of more importance , but even with improved sq it cannot make the source sound any better than it is capable of. That’s all source first is.
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The first move anyone makes starting from scratch or should make is to consider what size sound scale and volume they wish to have without overloading the room (this basicly rules out Linns favourite demo spk the Kan) Then choose a amplifier that can drive the spk. To get the best from these components you need the highest quality source you can afford information lost or corrupted here is permanent. Linns view was marketing first! make the T.T. affordable by skimping on items further down the chain - simple really.
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It would be interesting to see that evidence.
Care to share? (I don’t think you’ve yet responded to @LindsayM‘s query on this)
But in terms of enjoyment what matters is the sound, so having a sound you like is significant, and speakers are the biggest factor in the character of the sound - meanwhile no chain is stronger than its weakest link, and a system can only pass on to the listener that which the poorest component can manage - so balance is the only perfect way, though with speakers having a character and capability that satisfies.
But if upgrading is planned or in progress few people can afford to change the entire system at a time to maintain perfect balance, so inevitably one of more components will be better than others, more for anyone trying to upgrade most cost efficiently with fewer, larger steps - and whilst any one component is likely to makes difference, getting the speakers to the endgame is most significant in terms of sound, though it may make greater demands on the amp, and of course no component must be really abysmal. (But even before you start spending Naim prices on components that is pretty easy to achieve, at least with digital sources.)
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However that was a very specific comparison of one better source and one lesser preamp and vice versa, indicting your preference - and you recognised that it may not even be relevant to extrapolate to other sources and preamps …let alone whole systems, so whilst it is empirical evidence it is very specific and somewhat limited.
@Innocent_Bystander, I am not sure how I could have provided the evidence you asked for without providing a specific example. That said, your dismissive response came as no surprise. I debate you on these threads not with any expectation of changing your view but to present the contrary view to others following the threads and encourage them to find out for themselves which approach works best for them.
Limited as the one example I cited may be, I still think it’s enough to suggest that when building or upgrading a system, people should at least ask their dealers to compare the 2 approaches. Within the Naim range, a Naim dealer should be able to do the necessary demos.
Anyway, another example from my experience: LP12, A&R A60, Celef Mini Professional SM beats Thorens 160, A&R A60, Celef PE1.
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Thank you for your further response, which is helpful. My ‘dismissive response’ as you put it was not critical of you giving an example, but given the strong belief you expressed in your previous post I had expected rather more than that single limited example. Your follow-up examples makes it more meaningful. You rightly observe that we have different views on this and are unlikely to change one another’s opinions, however it is always valuable to hear the reasoned arguments and experiences, however much they may differ from one’s own, while the specific examples put context to what you may have been hearing.
One factor that is particularly personal is taste in music, and what parts of the music are important to the individual, and that of course may be significant with various equipment choices, and may have a bearing on this particular debate. For example, my primary tastes are prog rock, classical, heavy rock and dramatic opera. With some of that music low bass to me is a fundamental part of the, conveying emotion far more than can, for example, rhythmic elements. That means that for me any speaker that can’t reproduce low bass is simply stifling the music, while a speaker that plays it badly (e.g. one-note or all boomy) is messing up the music. That undoubtedly is a factor in my concluding that speakers are a far more significant part of a system than source as long as the source is above a basic level. I can quite see that for someone who finds, say, the rhythmic elements of music primary to their engagement and is not interested in - or even dislikes - low bass at its full intensity or at all may come to a different conclusion, being far less demanding of speakers.
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As I feared nothing happened. Nobody contacted me even if to say that they can’t help. Naim’s customer service, at least in my case, is non-existent.
That’s very odd. I was sure that Naim made some enquiries with the distributor about this to see how they could resolve this. Let me try to find out what’s happening.
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Hi Richard,
Yesterday I got a call from the distributor and they said that Naim had agreed to replace the unit with a new one. Today I received it. Thanks so much for your help in making it right! My faith in the brand has been restored, all thanks to you and this forum!
Regards,
Sergei
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