Knife and balls

So what Bubble upnp server are you using?
Why does it make Tidal sound better?

Hi, I’m not great at navigating this forum, but there is plenty of background if you want to search for Tidal, UPNP, etc

Basically I was using Tidal connecting directly from my Naim Nova, and always felt it was lacking something … PRAT I guess. You’ll see from my previous posts that I assumed my speakers were not capable of delivering what the NAIM offers (B&W 805D2) so started to research alternatives, but then I read a post about using Tidal via UPNP so gave it a try.

I have an old NAS that I run Bubble UPNP from, you can also run from a laptop or anything really, certainly to try it out for yourself. Bubble UPNP connects to Tidal, or Spotify, google how to set it up if you have problems, its quite straight forward.

I then use the LUMIN app on my iPhone/iPad to control the NAIM and Bubble UPNP server, so LUMIN does the job of the NAIM app, you search for tracks in a Tidal or even on your NAS/hard drive, and select which UPNP device to play them on (eg Naim, but I also have a Ruark that I control through a LUMIN).

It even improved my Muso sound.

I posted on the forum to say that i was convinced that it made a big improvement, but it may be my imagination, and plenty more members said they confirm there’s a bit improvement, including through A/B testing!

I read those type of threads a year ago and got the impression that upnp with good nas files was better than Tidal - but I was not aware that people found upnp improved the sq of their Tidal access

Does anyone else find this effect too?

Thanks Jim

Some years ago I designed a rack system which came in individual levels, each level separated by sitting on squash balls (located in suitably-shaped (hemispherical) cups on the bottom and top of each level). Worked very nicely.

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Found the post that first inspired me to try the UPNP route, this also has a link to the guide for setting up Bubble UPNP.

For the past few months I’ve been trying to squeeze all the sq out of my humble superuniti that I possibly can. I think I’m almost there…

First, a powerline lite. Not sure how this works but it dies. Bigger soundstage and loads more clarity and detail. Definitely worth a try. And if it doesn’t work, well, the resell value means you probably won’t lose much.

Then, I started using bubble upnp on my server instead of tidal app. Again, a very satisfying upgrade.

Then an upgrade on my extension block. Nothing overly elaborate but a block from mcru with no leds, surge protection, switches etc. Nice thick cable though. The plug does have a gold plated fuse but not sure how much difference this makes. Overall, a massive upgrade.

Most recently, a blue jeans cat 6a patch cable that replaced my chord network cable. I didn’t expect much from this but I was massively surprised. Music from Tidal sounds like it’s actually in the room now. Remarkable. Really.

All relatively cheap and easy upgrades, that could be setup in seconds and then reversed if I didn’t like them. Definitely worth trying!


That`s the right way…

The right way…

I found that Tidal through Roon, and through the SonoreUPnP Bridge to my NDS was better than the ‘native’ Tidal integration in the Naim app.

  1. The Tidal in Roon, is presented as UPnP stream, but in WAV and not FLAC as with the Naim integration.
  2. It allows for the playback of Tidal Masters, which are unfolded in the Roon Core, prior to presentation as a UPnP stream to the NDS, in either 24/44.1, 24/48 or 24/96 (1st unfold only takes them up to 24/96). But this is still better than Redbook, which is where the Naim integration deals with.


Hi Simon

Overall, how much better does it sound? A little bit (say 3%) or unmistakably better (say 20%)?

I ask this because when I had a dCS Network Bridge doing the first unfold and running via spdif into my 272 (then without PSU) the difference, on careful side-by-side comparison, turned out to be indistinguishable.

So the difference you’re hearing is either coming mainly from the files being decoded into wav, or from any DSP or other SQ effects of Roon software, or from other system and room differences.


Smart idea. Cheaper than my solution. I did something similaire between and under the concrete slabs. A little bit more expensive but never the less the same principle. And works perfect.

So is that regular Tidal or Tidal Masters verses the native Naim app?
Regular Tidal is a marginal improvement when through Roon, but the Tidal Masters are unmistakably better. Not quite Spofiy to Tidal levels of improvement, in fact does anyone use the Spotify integration any more?
Plus as have already pointed out, the conversion of packet data formats to clock based in S/PDIF will introduce losses & problems, hence the SonoreUPnP is, at present, the best method of 'Roonifying the NDS but that’s a different post subject.
The introduction of a Naim PSU to your 272 will have dropped your noise floor (certainly it did when I was running a ND5XS and introduced a XP5XS, so not even the level of a 555DR PSU).


Hi Simon

Using my Tidal Hifi subscription, there were no significant differences between Tidal Masters vs Tidal 16/44 non-MQA files vs Qobuz HiRes files of the same recording. All of them sounded very good, but none of them stood out as consistently better. This is listening to whole tracks and to short passages.

Also, as mentioned above, Tidal Masters via the Network Bridge was not better than 16/44 Tidal on the same recordings via the Naim app.

(I’ve never used Spotify.)

Yes, adding the 555DR to the 272 made a big difference, and did indeed drop the noise floor a lot.


So do you still use Roon or just the Naim App for playback selection and library management?

I’ve never had Roon - or even heard it.
I used the dCS Mosaic app for a while - now I’m back with the Naim app.
I prefer the Naim app as it has excellent short descriptions of artists and tracks/LPs.
I’m happy with the playback selection and library management in the Naim app, so I’d only get Roon if I felt it was the best way to improve SQ.
But at the moment many things are ahead of Roon on my wishlist, including: a Melco, NAP and speakers!

Well this sounds you don’t have enough kids yet, Zen.

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There is none of that when you use a non-Naim UPnP server. This metadata and the support for its display in the Naim app relies on there being a UnitiServe or even a UnitiCore indexing and managing your local library.
With Roon all that metadata enrichment at the artist, album (or composer, movement) level is provided for any stored music regardless where it located on your network or the endpoint is it to be played on.
Plus it provides a better Tidal integration, but also Qobuz too.

And with ROCK being provided free-of-charge to install on commodity NUC hardware, even with a lifetime subscription its still cheaper than a UnitiCore (which is just a Linux server).

Right now I don’t have a local library.
I’m interested in getting a Melco.
What do you think of them?
Then I suppose I’d have to move off the Naim app.

If you’re talking about the Rovi booklet that you can open from the Naim app, it does not require a Naim server to access this from the Naim app. Likewise, the links to other albums and similar artists in Tidal is also visible. Roon might make this info avaliable in a slicker presentation, but I think the Naim app gives you a decent amount of information if you want it.

Only time I have seen/heard one in a system, was one of the forum members here in Dublin.
His was connected to his ND555 (previously NDS) but he also had a Roon Core.
So, the content library was on the Melco, but indexed by the Roon Core, and then served to the ND555 - effectively using the Melco as a specialist NAS and network isolation layer for the streamer, but not using the Twonky UPnP server it ships with. Probably a better experience that trying to use the Twonky server.
Hard to evaluate the role of the Melco unit, over having the content on either local disk connected directly to the Roon Core or on a regular NAS, and the streamer connected to a switch. Or the Melco serving the content through Twonky.

At present, I have no intend of going in that direction - I am looking to the upcoming Uptone EtherRegen. an ‘optimised for audio’ 5-port switch with a completely isolated LAN port just for the streamer and decent power regulation to clean up the network connection before entering the Streamer. So many here on this forum have reported SQ improvements with a Enterprise level Cisco Catalyst switch over a commodity £50 SoHo unit, there is probably further improvements with LAN isolation, clean switching environment between the backend servers and front-end streamers/renders.