What do other members who have watched the Leaving Neverland think it has done for Jackson’s legacy?
I admit close to zero interest in MJ & his music. I haven’t seen the TV program, but have been discussing & reading the press & as such I’m probably a genuine neutral.
I foresee only the most avid MJ fans protesting his innocence & the rest turning against him.
Phew - from the thread title i’d assumed the thread to be about a concerned forum member who’d accidentally listened to a non Naim product and liked it…
Saw one episode and didn’t feel the need to watch the second. The estate claim to sensationalism rang hopelessky untrue with a clear focus on the victims rather than the superstar. Couple of MJ albums will still get played.
A heartbreaking documentary that was so sparse and devoid of sensationlism that for me it just rang so true and as someone with experience in these issues both in my life and through voluntary work it was absolutely plain that these two men where telling the truth.
I grew up through these times and played Off The Wall to death as a young teenager but I was always convinced of Jackson’s guilt but with the timeline condensed into around four hours even I was shocked at the blatant and public nature of his grooming and was left both amazed and angry at how he was allowed to abuse so many young boys.
It is important that these issues are aired and discussed openly because it is only by keeping secrets that these individuals are allowed to abuse children.
Some reports have found that up to one in five British girls and women and one in seven boys and men have reported suffering sexual abuse of some kind during their lifetime it is a huge problem being perpetrated within families, sports and social institutions and it is only by brave men and women such as Wade Robson and Jimmy Safechuck that these issues are being openly discussed that make people naturally wary of adults no matter who they are wanting to spend too much time with their children.
One particular group of fans have paid for banners on London buses that read ‘Facts Don’t Lie People Do’. Michael Jackson was an evil predatory paedophile who used his fame to ruin the lives of at least five boys now men and their families for his own sexual gratification.
Well said BtB, he’s in the same slime bucket as Jimmy Savile in my book. I wonder if he will get no play blackballed by the media.
Agree with bob the builder 100% pedo and the parents of these kids should be very proud of themselves, unreal what they let go on and as a parent of 3 i can’t believe they did
Question which arises for me every time is how did he get to become that person rather than how was he allowed to continue as that person. His extraordinary childhood is a story well told but probably underplayed. Leaving Neverland simply reinforced that a screwed up childhood will often produce a very screwed up adult.
Correct. What Michael did was wrong, but he was also a victim of his situation. I know these situations in my surrounding also.
I will not judge him, I’m a simple person - not G’d or a judge.
I will keep listening to his music, and think of poor Michael and what made him so.
My childhood was far from perfect and I didn’t molest boys. NO EXCUSE! A difficult childhood can produce addiction, criminality amongst other terrible issues but there are no excuses for sexually abusing children none in my book.
Bob we all agree that there are NO EXCUSES.
But Mike is spot on: when a society likes young hero’s we should not be surprised that this is the result. I also categorize the Beauty Queen Contests as a very evil thing. It should simply be forbidden to exploit kids for music or beauty contests on this grand scheme.
I do think part of the problem is the whole “no excuses” mentality. That’s not having a go at you @Bobthebuilder. More a general observation that some things are so horrific we want them to be inexplicable so we can blame some intangible “evil” or a specific individual. Every time we do that we are explicitly turning away from the possibility that there may be an explanation which may reveal far worse and we’re addressing symptoms rather than causes.
Exceptionalism - the idea that something doesn’t conform to a norm and therefore is not normal - is unhelpful in these sorts of instances. It’s absolutely true that not every person who has been abused or traumatised goes on to be an abuser or to traumatise others but those are increasingly being seen as the exceptions rather than the norm.
In mental health circles for example there’s increasing recognition that we’ve spent so long looking for medical solutions we’ve forgotten to listen to those with such issues. When we do the level of childhood trauma is remarkably consistent.
So, yes, MJ… horrific abuse but my first reaction is always to not be viscerally offended and to contemplate what horrors led him to that point. That truth may never out and so I don’t really see some point where I would cease, for example, playing Off The Wall.
Mike I’m afraid we will have to agree to disagree but when a fully grown man is accused of putting his tongue into a seven year old boy’s anus whilst masturbating and tries to penetrate the same boy seven years later and encouraging a boy with cancer (sent to visit him by a childs charity) to masturbate him then I’m sorry but I’m never going to want to listen to his music ever again no matter how good it was and his allegedly ‘terrible’ childhood is a pathetic excuse I’m afraid.
We will never agree because I will always be viscerally offended by that level of abuse and will never ever contemplate what horrors led the abuser to that point.
I think we’re largely on the same page. I am absolutely viscerally offended but if my thought process ends there I tend to feel like it’s a fairly useless emotion. It’s easy,and absolutely understandable, to be angry about stuff (let’s face it the Internet is full of anger) but it’s what happens next that matters. Situatyims like this horror show will always reoccur until we move past visceral offence and methodically enquire into how matters got to that point.
Nope. I definitely meant the first of those two options. It is quite contentious amongst many professionals that almost all abusers have been abused but it is increasingly being accepted that it is the case. There’s a lot of evidence that not only is it the case but it’s a natural neurobiological state of affairs. I recommend Behave by Sapolsky if you fancy 880 odd pages solid multi-disciplinary evidence to that effect. Despite the length it’s a pretty easy read.
Firstly I’d like to apologize if my posts have been slightly spikey on this thread but as you can tell it is something I feel strongly about.
This is a forum for music lovers and last week there was a four documentary that
made very strong claims that arguably the most famous musician of all time the so called ‘King of Pop’ was a predatory paedophile and only seven people (2 of who didn’t discuss the subject directly) on this forum have taken part.
It is a very, very uncomfortable subject I know and I understand for many this isn’t the place to discuss it but it is important to talk about it wether here or elsewhere.
Even if like Mike and I you disagree on certain aspects of this subject we are at least talking about it.
In the past I have helped through a voluntary group many young offenders and I would say 70-80% have said they suffered some sexual abuse and of them at least 90% had substance misuse issues.
These young men mostly came from problematic backgrounds because it is these families that predatory paedophiles target and are able to gain access to children.
By talking about it we are raising awareness and through awareness we can help people to combat and recognize these paedophiles because if Micheal
Jackson is one then anyone can be one.
I didn’t watch it, but have gleaned the gist of it. There is much brokenness in the world and in the worldly sense these are complex problems. I come from a broken family myself, I try not to carry it forward. I also relate more to a more recent interest in Yogic philosophy, an understanding that is diffucult to convey through a discussion forum. The answers are there in all of us, finding them is another matter all together.
From such judgemental remarks are lynchings born. Forgive me for pointing this out, but Jackson, unlike Saville, was acquitted in a court of law of child abuse allegations. Now I’m not saying any judicial system is perfect, and we all know that money can, and does, talk. However, given that Jackson is now unable to answer any of these latest ‘change of mind’ allegations and defend himself I find this rush to judgement by some contributors visceral in itself. Like many others I always felt there was something extremely odd about MJ, but that in itself, even with the addition of unsubstantiated allegations, does not automatically convict him.
By the way, I’m not a ‘woolly liberal’, just someone who believes in due process of law and the right of people, whoever they are (including Shamima Begum) to a fair trial before being convicted by press, media and Sun/Mail readers.
When an adult confuses a young child into believing that sexual acts are a special way of showing love that nobody else would understand and then in every other way the abuser is a kind and loving person it can take many years even into adulthood for the abused child to untangle those feelings.
Sexual abuse especially when young children are concerned is extremely complexed and very hard to understand unless you have experience or have studied the issue. So what you see as a change of mind is the child or adult coming to the realization that it was not an act of love but sexual abuse.
It’s hard to understand that an abused child can love their abuser even long into adulthood and want to protect them. This is how abuse is allowed to take place.
Then there are the feelings of shame that are also a very strong incentive to protect or lie for an abuser.
Michael Jackson was a predatory paedophile and if you think that he repeatedly surrounded himself with pre pubescent boys always having a special child friend. because he was somehow this child like individual then you are naive in the extreme.
I suspect more will come forward in the coming months and years. That it has taken this length of time for these allegations to be public since MJs death, I feel that being cleared from any legal problems that could arise if false from the estate proof of viability.