I try to keep the mains-runs as short as reasonable from all the boxes where they meet-up in their mains connection.
There are some technical reasons I do this, as any noise on the mains appears as a common-mode to all boxes and effectively they all ride that noise together like boats all on the same wave and although there is noise - relatively there is none box to box.
When you have very long runs of mains cable they get their own individual noise and the same effect does not happen and effectively there is more noise box to box induced via mains.
Current circulates when there is a potential (voltage-difference) so you want to reduce the number of possible differences - and also not nest the loops of wiring, so daisy-chaining keeps the loops of ‘mains-box_A-signal_interconnection-Box_B-mains’ separated and it sound better to me.
I also found multiple radials (i.e. from CU outlet to a double socket) were a LOT worse in my system.
But I want to understand a little more what you mean by “impedance between equipment plugged in on the mains …”. As far as I see, this is the impedance of typically very short wire joining one socket to another in your ring circuit. Am I right? If not then please explain.
Because of the short length, this impedance is typically quite small, but you make an interesting point about the nature of this impedance – that its largely inductive. This bit I didn’t know and wondered if you could explain that a bit? Could explain a few other things I have observed with mains topologies…
As far I understand, in your case, the mains voltage across each component will be affected by the impedance of the previous component - though there is probably an effect of looping the last socket back to the CU as is done in a ring circuit (different from a block where the last socket is not looped back to CU).
TBH, I don’t fully understand all the effects – and I gather there is quite a bit more to this than the than just the ‘ohmic’ I/V/Z relationships – for example eddy currents. But your “inductive impedance” comment caught my attention anyhow.
We can off course discuss this off this forum in case this is not of general interest or is considered inappropriate here…
The MCRU extension arrived this morning. Oh dear for 97 quid I expect something better finished. It’s a £2.97 pro ELC branded made in china extension with a replacement lead and allegedly they silver coat the contacts. As I love what the RA has done I’m not going to bother and just send this back.
I do not say I understand all of what happens, only what does not describe what happens which is typically used as a guide when doing these things. A lot of people consider the electric mains like a water mains and as a fluid running along a pipe from a source to a passive destination at their HiFi box and none of that describes most of what is happening.
Each HiFi box has a power supply that is far from passive and is the main source of noise for the local system as it top-slices the mains waveform at 100Hz (UK) to fill the rectification capacitors - this is a very violent action that effectively short-circuits the mains briefly and draws a pulse of current with a lot of high frequencies as it is repeated off-on.
…way off-topic but in short the HiFi generates noise back into the mains and also is interconnected box-to-box forming a loop, so managing this pulse current circuit to minimally impact the effects of noise getting injected into the HiFi by the inevitable loops can be done. And there is the magnetic effects too so area topology has an impact.
This is why trying to keep and open mind - not assuming you know all of what is happening and then experimenting to find what sounds best is the best approach.
People need to know there is this other experience as otherwise a lot of money and expense can be put it to end-up disappointed and trying to convince yourself it is better - when it may not be. In some installations it may work or be to taste though.
… another interesting point you make DB – and it ‘rings’ (ha ha) true. but I lack a deep understanding of all the factors involved – let alone being able to model them in a simplified representation. one of these days…
Joint the club! Knowing that you don’t know everything is the beginning of the path to happiness in my experience.
Personally - I’m from a Science background (Physics) and was trained and interested in Electrical Engineering and low-level electronics and hobbied all that for years with HiFi - - I try to keep within the bounds of my personal universe of what works and what fails, in terms of getting results I want.
The end result is key for me rather that having a complete understanding beforehand, but I’m ‘wired’ to want that too - but also suspicious of dogmatic assertions that are on the face incomplete in their analysis of the range of phenomena concerned - and just don’t work when considering the end result.
…a lot more can be said - a lot - but waaay off-topic!
In short - experiment - try things and if they work they work is best and requires no up-front deep-understanding.
Try your mains block - find out how to get the best from it - enjoy music - ignore people that say ‘it makes no difference’.
Darke Bear,…This,as you write above,…has also been my joint words through this interest.
There is too many people who “spin in” themselves in technical explanations…And if they cannot explain it technically,…it does not exist.
I don’t care,…I test,.if it sounds better musically it is better…As Simply As That.
It also shows you examples of on this forum, some can sit for weeks and write in a thread that there is no difference on the Ethernet cables…
Without Having Tested,.WHY…
Spend time to test and try instead,…then you get a result,and answers to your thoughts.
My job is not to crack that egg - I just did - but certainly not to break it!
People need - really need for their health and well-being - either of two things.
To ‘know everything’ and therefor feel safe - then they need to tell people to reinforce that protective shell - and attack anyone that may force the effort to look again.
Have sufficient inner-strength and some humility to tread a path of knowledge and learning.
There are several other paths - sometimes we don’t know we have an ‘approach’ to life or that it mutates sometimes as we sometimes change and hopefully grow. I like the experimental approach that challenges expected results from theoretical conjectures with what is actually there in personal experience.
…also electricity does not flow in wires, but uses the wire as a guide and is mediated by the combination of the lowest-impedance path (generally but not always the wire) and an interaction with the various layers of dielectric and manifests as a pulsing flowing ‘living’ electromagnetic field extending ‘a long way’ that cannot just be ignored because we only understand ‘water in a pipe electronics’.
There are ways to understand what is happening - and form a line of progression from there but waAAAy off-topic.
Having a simple system, I have it all connected to the wall. Although I have my telly, skybox Q and the wireless box from the old Skybox hd for broadband connection for my Unitiserve into a dedicated strip from Russ Andrews running from a spare wall outlet.
Before. The RA strip was fed from an old Nordost power cable, but recently swapped this out for the Naim Unitiserve PC, the one with the little box along the cable to stop any nasties swamping the flow from the SMPS.
What a revelation. Without playing anything the system just seems more quiet. No clicks and blips that has troubled. Even through swapping to optical from skybox to Ndac in the past has still persisted.
Inky blackness and that little jiggle when air is felt moving is so much more palpable.
Just unplugged a 30w apple laptop/phone charger from the same room as my naim rig. This is one of the new USB C Power delivery PD hi speed chargers for the newer IPhones and also for Macbook…
All 3 hi fi systems seem improved…even those not in the room!
The the 250dr seems to have gained back the low low noise floor and the energy is back… strangely I’ve not been that keen to listen to music lately… 6 months ago I plugged in this phone charger and didn’t think it would affect my naim rig …
I’m really puzzled with this would be the case ?
It’s not the only SMPS being used at home … blimey…
It can’t possibly make any difference - until you find it did and does - then you realize there is more to be considered and these little devices can be very noisy and inject that into a bit of wire your HiFi is connected to.
Some chargers are OK and some are noisy I find. Only reasonable way to quickly find what does what is to one by one plug each in tun into and out of mains and listen - better or no difference - then you quickly find the noisy culprits and know if to either find better devices or at least un-plug them before you want a good music session.
I also have a six line Powerigel (old style NOT new powerline version) with everything plugged into it apart from my turntable which I plug into it’s own socket in the wall when using it and the TP link when I’m using my server.
The other day I was turning my server on and off in an attempt to get it to connect to my computer via the TP link, my 135’s and system was humming a bit and when I flicked the switch on the back of my server (so not fully on as the actual on switch is on the front of the server) the humming suddenly changed.
I tried it several times, timing switching the switch on the back of the server to coincide to when the humming was at it’s highest/loudest point so as to clearly hear the difference it made.
Each time the humming changed when the switch on the back of the server was switched on, so the previous comments that other boxes on the same ring effect each other must be true.
I’m not sure what the answer is as even if you had a separate wall outlet for each box they would still be daisy chained on the same circuit.
Or am I getting the bit about having each box on separate wall outlets wrong?
Btw I think the new Powerline Powerigel has Rfi shielded cabling.
"Don’t whatever put a large heating appliance attached to a household mains block outlet. These draw a lot of current and will make a big fire, due to the limits of these extension blocks abilities ".
Possible with high power power amps perhaps ??
If possible try using a run of Ethernet cable from your router / switch to your server rather than trying to use those TP Link mains Ethernet solutions. I’m not sure whether you are using a Naim streamer but, if so, Naim advise against using the Ethernet over mains systems.
to be fair this in the US where the current draw is twice what it is in the UK (for the same ‘power’). In the UK as long as you conform to the maximum current (power) of the mains strip then I can’t see the problem. Okay I wouldn’t plug a 3KW amp (or fire) into a mains strip but that would have to be some REALLY butch power amp!!
Although I can stream with my sever (Innuos Zenith SE), I currently only use it for playback from the internal memory so only use the TP Link Ethernet thing to control the unit (play, stop, pause, edit titles).
I realise the best option would be not to use the TP Link thing at all, the problem is that my router is miles away in another room and it would be awkward and inconvenient to run a cable down the landing.
I’m not much of an it wizard but I will look into this a little more deeply and see if I can come with a better solution.