MM cart with Supernait 3

@n-lot I know you had this discussion previously but I see you want other answers :slight_smile:

Hi I use a reference PowerKord for all my power cables. I have just ordered a Evolution 300 PowerKord for the power supplier for my P 8 Neo TT Psu.

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Iā€™d say P8 for 150 albums is extremely fine, maybe you get more vinyl on a longer term.
Otherwise a cheaper solution if you unsure of media.

Lots of good MM cartridges (or high output MC) available.
I guess the MM stage inside SN3 is on level with earlier Stageline/522N cards.

2M Bronze is not as complicated as 2M Black in VTA adjustment, so leave choice of spacer which Rega does not recommend anyway, as it compromise deck performance.

Another classic superb cartridge is Goldring G1042 or 1022gx (similar to Linn Adikt)
Also the rigB body fitted to a VM540ML should be very fine.
Theres even the more expensive VM760SLC
rigB body benefit also with insert threads for easy mount.

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I have a Goldring 1042, it is sounding good through the XS3 version of same card in the SN3!

For complicated reasons I also have a Stageline N, once my XS3 has settled down Iā€™m going to see how that compares to the built in phono stage.

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I had the 2M Black on a P8 and it sounded great, but I experienced some VTA OCD :smiley: that ended up with me getting a P10 with Apheta-3 (while HH went the spacer route :slight_smile: )
Not that I am complaining, it is even better, but now I read the Rega book and they have a whole section devoted to the topic of VTA angst being a psychological condition and not a technical one ā€¦

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Another Goldring 1042 fan here. Going via Stageline N to SN1

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That sounds like an expensive therapeutic cure :slight_smile:

Indeed, but also a simple one :slight_smile: Plus, when I bought the P8 a year before, it had been perfect for the system I had then and I thought the P10 was way beyond reasonable for me. But then the pandemic and I ended up with NDX2/555/252/SCDR/300DR, so by the end of the year the P10 seemed the better fit. Now I am waiting for my dealerā€™s demo Superline and I swear then I am done :slight_smile:

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Not a discussion really, and not looking for answers. I have mine, the previous thread provided those.

Just advising the OP who asked for advice. Iā€™m not saying it wonā€™t sound good to his ears, but I do think itā€™s important that he realises the frequency response will be audibly altered if an MM cart is loaded incorrectly. Thatā€™s just a scientific fact, you can google it if you want. Manufacturers provide those numbers for a reason.

But some people like tone controls, DSP and many speakers (inc. mine) donā€™t measure perfectly flat either, so itā€™s not necessarily a problem.

Sure it is a fact, but the 470 value is not so atypical as was previously discussed, and I just wanted to point that out. Many people do think that Naim phonostages ā€œwork rather wellā€. You may prefer it differently and by all means let the OP know, but I think itā€™s also fair to point out that this is not a decisive issue for many people.

(Edit: To be clear, my inclusion of a reference to you was intended as a courtesy and jokingly, not to attack you)

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Famous last words!

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Not sure about it not being a-typical. None of the MM carts mentioned in this thread can be correctly (according to their manufacturers spec) loaded with the SN3. And the (few) phono stages I checked, ineed seem to have much lower values. Rega Aria which is often used by people here is 100pF, same for the MoFi and Lehmann phono pre-amps. Pro-ject is configurable, 100-220-320pF. I didnā€™t check any others, so happy to be proven wrong if thereā€™s a ton out there using similarly high values to Naim.

I have not stated any preference. Iā€™ve mentioned a few times that I can imagine it sounds great. Actually, in the thread you linked I expressed a desire to listen to a Stageline which has the same input capacitance. Iā€™ve also mentioned in my previous reply that my speakers donā€™t have a flat frequency response either, evidence that that isnā€™t a decisive factor for me.

But of course a complication for the OP is that heā€™s choosing a cart for the phono stage, and not the other way around. Carts are much harder to audition, so you are buying blind mostly. If you have a cart and try a different phono stage, itā€™s easy to determine if the treble roll-off (and pre roll-off boost) bothers you or not. Or even improves things!

Maybe not here, but in general, (correct) loading of cartridges is considered quite important. impedance in the case of MC, capacitance for MM. A few stages have it configurable for that reason, but otherwise cables can also be played with.

I never interpreted it that way, no worries.

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Thanks for the long explanation.

I meant typical for Naim stages, and I havenā€™t seen many complaints about them. Of course you are correct about the values of Aria et al. But both Naim and Aria are both well regarded, so maybe it tells us that in reality itā€™s not so relevant.

Indeed you did then, which was why the comment in this thread kind of surprised me, it seemed to be quite a strong statement, as if it canā€™t work rather well be because of the capacitance value:

Hence my (intended in good spirit) ā€œbut I see you want other answers :slight_smile:ā€
You did mention your speakers and that flat responses are not real in the room anyway, so that makes this doubly baffling.

I donā€™t think that itā€™s such a big problem. As feeling_zen already wrote, ā€œYou donā€™t see many threads titled ā€œI canā€™t find a darn MM compatible with Naim phono stageā€. I assume thereā€™s a reason for that.ā€

The OP was considering getting back into vinyl with 150 albums in the collection and whether he might utilize the (excellent, by all accounts) built-in stage of the SN3 he already has. I donā€™t think that overcomplicating this is necessary.

Many things are considered quite important that might not be. E.g. see Regaā€™s stance on VTA and adjustment mechanism that I mentioned above, while others are convinced itā€™s extremely important to adjust it.

:+1:

Very true. Naim have staked their opinion on these things based on the design. You can shell out serious money for a Superline/Supercap but you are still getting a preconfigured black box with high loading. And that might fly in the face of what some users and other manufacturers think they know. And for users who think Naim got it wrong and donā€™t know their ass from their elbow, Iā€™d suggest maybe Naim phono stages arenā€™t for them. I think thatā€™s okay too. Plenty of people think Naim is bonkers and vice versa.

FWIW I have a non Naim integrated in the SN3 price bracket and the loading for the MM phono stage isnā€™t even published.

For users convinved problems caused by this are an inescapable fact, Iā€™d suggest buying a different phono stage. Personally, at the level of turntable and cart Iā€™d pair with a SN3 level amp, Iā€™d not worry about it. For the purists, there is always this:

A Luxman EQ-500

pb7

Everything is adjustable. And yet in tests, it wasnā€™t always found that the ā€œcorrectā€ settings gave the best results. I donā€™t think that means the science is wrong so much as there is more to it.

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As this discussion is getting quite long and detailed with many sub-points and quotes. I wonā€™t reply to every single one. Let me know if you feel I failed address any specific one that youā€™d like me to.

I guess ā€œworksā€ is very subjective in this context. It can work for you or me, but what I meant was that I donā€™t think you can say ā€œworks wellā€ in a general sense if for most mainstream cartridges it wonā€™t be the sound as the manufacturers of those cartridges intended.

I was just making him aware of this, as I do think itā€™s relevant. I donā€™t think this is overcomplicating things, itā€™s important to know. Since he was asking about what to buy, this information could even help to make a decision. For example, when in doubt between two with different loading specifications. Or he could see if one does specify such loading (Iā€™ve also suggested asking Naim which they used).

I would not put that in the same category. Iā€™ve never seen any ā€œevidenceā€ that VTA is relevant other than people saying they hear it, i.e. anecdotal. For loading of cartridges thereā€™s tons of scientific evidence in the form of frequency response graphs. I think itā€™s also pretty established which frequencies are audible.

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It is getting long indeed and I believe sufficiently clarified from both of us, for this thread :slight_smile: I am still not convinced, but it would be leading too far. Thanks for taking the time. I guess the OP now has sufficient input to make choices more difficult :smiley:

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Yes Iā€™m possibly more confused now than I was before asking the question!!! (Lol!)

My aim is to keep the box count to a minimum. I think the SN3 is really excellent - it does all I want from an amp - I donā€™t want more boxes if possible. Iā€™m thinking is there a MM turntable that I can just plug in and play that would sound as good (albeit in a different way) as the NDX2?

Option 1 - clear audio wood with satisfy arm
Option 2 - Rega P8 with a suitable cartridge

I suspect Iā€™d be happy with either of these but theyā€™re quite different to each other.

1GL

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Buying a turntable is horribly confusing :frowning:

I would personally throw the Technics SL-1200GR (or SL-1210GR) into the mix. Youā€™ll save some money, which you can then possibly spend elsewhere.

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All I can say is that my P8 and Ortofon 2M Black does not disgrace itself in comparison with my NDX2/PS555DR, which is pretty amazing when you consider that the latter costs over five times as much. Iā€™d not worry overly about the unnecessary complexity that this thread has delved into. The reality is that the P8/2MB is a bloody good turntable. The Wood may be good too. Sometimes you can overthink things.

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I havenā€™t actually heard the SN3 MM phono section, but from what Iā€™ve read here and researched over the last few years, I wouldnā€™t hesitate to pair a P6 or P8 level TT thru it. This may end up being the catalyst that nudges me from my thoroughly enjoyable SN2, up to an SN3, when I want to hear my LPs again and buy a P8.

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