Naim to my mind needs a 100 series, if they made boxes at around £2k you could get a streamer, pre amp and power amp for around 6K, which would significantly under cut 222/250. Naim have smaller shoe box cases already for the Core and the NVC TT and the NPX TT which I am sure they could use.
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The issue here is that the casework is a large slice of the cost of a Naim box. Would three little boxes, with three transformers, three cases, three cardboard boxes, three mains leads and the necessary interconnects actually sound any better than a Nova? And if it didn’t, why bother? It may appeal to a few old men on the Naim Forum, but out there in the real world, why have three little boxes when one bigger one will do it all, and very likely a lot better?
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72/140 was before my time but would be surprised if it was considered affordable, new, in the mid nineties.
(A mate of mine had one and it was undeniably lovely, pulled me in, so I can see where you are coming from.)
C.
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Oh pleeeeeze Steve also design a 100 series crossover for SBLs and IBLs like the IXO was. I want boxes many many boxes. I love cats too and I see where they come from.
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This thread needs a photo. There’s a nostalgic aura with the vintage boxes that can’t be beat, though I’ve spent more on servicing costs than I did on the boxes themselves (almost 3x’s as much), but worth the price of entry IMO.
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Hi Paul,
I appreciate this thread is about small entry level priced boxes that NAIM should produce. But NAIM already have a box that is well less than £2k that is a streamer, preamp AND power amplifier - it is the NAIM CI-102.
If you don’t want the power amplifier part, just use the preamplifier outputs (sub outputs too) and attach your favourite power amplifier.
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Are they (willing to pay)? I heard that the N50 and indeed the Solstice were marketing and sales flops.
As for products made in China, Muso and QB both did well until the manufacturer became greedy and demanded some tariff parity.
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I think they certainly did (well two not three - XS3 + ND5XS2). And many people still want to select their source and amps differently. If that option isn’t on the table and that was your use case, you’re not going to buy a Nova.
Bear in mind that other non Chinese brands do still inhabit the lower mid range of separates that Naim vacated, Saying that Naim couldn’t make a business case for it doesn’t mean that a business case cannot be made for it at all. It means, simply Naim can no longer do it.
Once you cede a market, it’s terribly difficult to get back in. And for buyers wanting separates, this will have a knock on effect with the 200 series and upwards too I suspect. Without a separates ladder to climb, consumers will start elsewhere and if they start with another brand they are happy with many will be very likely to show loyalty as they climb the ladder rather than get to NC200 budget and then switch to Naim.
Therefore, you have two things going on at once:
- Leaving the low-mid range separates market to focus on premium lifestyle hifi.
- Giving separates customers less of a reason to look at the offerings you do actually have.
There is nothing wrong at all with shifting the business to focus on customers who want a single box solution and no interest in gradual upgrades. But it comes at a cost. And that might be calculated. I’ve worked for several companies that decided to take the business in a new direction and made active decisions to “ump our legacy customers - they can’t come where we’re going”. The main reason I ditched Linn was they were going down the road that Naim is now embarking on and had very few products I actually wanted for a main system.
Currently, we are sort of stuck behind the veil. We don’t know if Naim are really changing direction full steam ahead or if market conditions are simply making it difficult to release things. I suspect a bit of both.
In the past 13 years I’ve been on the forum, the variety of non Naim systems has grown dramatically. I don’t think it is any accident that in the same period Naim have also culled their offering dramatically.
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Doubt this will ever happen unless a pure China made Nait - and who would buy this ? - Most old iconic Brands are now China made - cost effective, entry level retail priced.
To my knowledge, Rega is the only UK based manufacturer to offer High-seller worldclass amps. Rega Brio/IO cover very well entry level market below €2k.
Upcoming replacement for XS or SN is more a realistic scenario, there’s must be a market out there.
Naim may already have some prototypes ready for Barco to decide release or not.
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Indeed. However, I said the resting price point, which is the £ dealers were able to shift new N50s at, not the initial overpriced RRP of £2700.
That price which got units off the shelves is what people were prepared to pay, and any sales/marketing team or manager signing off a value proposition must now be aware of.
There is a healthy market in pre-loved N50 at just under £1k. At that price, a bargain.
The N50 should have had a remote volume control. Just my opinion.
And I know I’ve mentioned this before but in the US Naim is not a good value as compared to domestic brands. And yes I understand that US products are also more expensive in the UK, but the US is a much bigger market and wouldn’t it make sense to try and get more market share by trying to be more cost competitive?
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Yes, for me a remote control is one of the prerequisites for a purchase apart from having standard XLR connections.
Naim can do whatever they wish but ultimately it’s the consumers or potential customers who will eventually decide. I don’t know, but what I think is Naim isn’t getting much market share by doing things their way. Things such as sticking with DIN connections, separate power supplies, integrated without a remote control etc. and the list goes on. It’s true that Naim have stuck with this philosophy for a long time, but the world is changing and the new generation may not be too receptive.
I presume most new Naim owners are people who have had experience with Naim products in the past. New potential (young) customers would be less inclined to look at Naim but elsewhere for a more ‘standard’ product. My opinion and I may be wrong but that’s the way I see it.
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I agree. As I’ve mentioned above, Naim multiple boxes mostly appeal to older people who have had experience with Naim products in the past. What I feel is most younger customers would be less inclined to look at Naim and there can be many reasons as mentioned in this thread.
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The gateway drug for entry into the Naim world is the Atom HE. It could do with a power amp at a similar price and a phono preamp at a reasonable price.
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This was caused by a few dealers heavily overstocking and betting the N50 would sell in 5mins and allow them to make a quick healthy profit, clearly not appreciating this amp is unique and needed to he heard and some time to be taken up by the core Naim community, not the average Currys customer. It’s not a mass product and they should have known better. If it had been done gradually the N50 could have kept its price nearly at RRP. Even leaving aside future classic status, there is no better sounding amp anywhere this price level.
In any case, it worked very well for consumers able to buy at probably almost cost of goods for a while, and for some time on the 2nd hand market.
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Indeed, as we know its aprox. 2000 units only.
It took attention a bit out of former Nait CB/Nait 2 sought after market niche, those prices went downhill, especially when NN50 reached £1k level.
Not really, the purpose of this amp was not to modernize the original Nait.
Need a remote ? everything else Naim has it.
Indeed, the challenge for Naim is the new market, already addressed with Uniti’s and Muso.
Youngsters don’t buy into €2k Nait5Si or separates at NC price level.
Young visitors at my home paid more attention to a Mu-So Qb, than the 6-pak in rack.
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True but I don’t believe that has changed at all in the past 60 years.
The cheapest one I can find is just over £1700
And not just Naim. My Linn Selekt comes in two versions: Classic and more expensive Edition. The price differential with exactly the same innards would buy you a Nova, well almost. Quality casework for such a specialist product is not cheap — there’s a factory tour online which includes a section on the case and just how elaborate the construction process is. I guess this is part of why putting power amps into, or round the back of, speaker cabinets can make for a good bargain.
Roger
While I understand that good quality casework is expensive, I’m not convinced that the casework argument or indeed the ‘made in China/vs made in the UK’ are that strong, especially if a company wants to do it. I would argue that the likes of Cyrus and Rega make products with bespoke, good quality casework here in the UK and at price-points that Naim has largely left behind. Indeed, the Atom iterations demonstrate that Naim itself has a business case for good quality casework products at the more ‘affordable’ end of the market.
As for making things competitively in the UK (or Europe/North America for that matter) there are quite a few manufacturers that do manage this, including pre-power combinations. Indeed, Rowen, who I mentioned in the thread I started yesterday, offer a range of Swiss-made pre and power components that pretty much all undercut the Naim 200 range, never mind the 300 range. Pre-amps are between 2500 - 5000 CHF, power amps between 2000 - 6500 CHF and power supplies are between 1200 - 2500 CHF. Switzerland is not a cheap place to manufacture and nor do they achieve it through economies of scale - they only sell in Switzerland and Germany. Where there is a will, there is a way, but there needs to be a will.
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