Muso Qb’s days numbered - alternatives?

I have 5Ghz disabled as it’s no use to me anyway. The Qb connects to my WAP (a re-purposed BT Hub 5 - cost 10 quid). Ermm that’s it. Works first time every time.

Great to hear you have your muso working. Personally I think the app is causing my problems. When my phone jumps frequencies the app loses contact we my devices for milliseconds and drops back to searching for rooms. It should be robust enough to see understand what the phone is doing and seamlessly recover from the switch. The bluesound app does not have the same issues. If I stand next to the router the app works fine in 5ghz. My muso is in the kitchen so I use a power line av device to transmit my network via the mains and that works well and means you don’t get reduced bitrate with the WiFi connection

No such issue here, my WiFi is always roaming as my APs load balance… and not a single glitch on my Qb.
My view is poor interoperability or no implementation of either or combinations of 802.11r, 802.11k and 802.11v on your WiFi router or access point.
Absolutely nothing to do with the app, completely the wrong end of the spectrum… unless you are advocating bloating and clogging up the app and it’s performance to try and second guess faulty or sub standard equipment which would not be good, as it would drag performance down for those with a home network commensurate for their Naim equipment.

EDIT just did a forced roam between APs on my Qb… there was a slight sub second pause whilst listening to HD BBC4 and other than that… seamless

I can only disagree :slight_smile:
As I tried to explained the Muso is the ONLY device having those issues among ~20 devcies working seamlessly on my Wifi network and some are really old/cheap android devices.
The fact that Muso doesn’t support basic features such as 5GHz band and hidden SSID is already a hint that its Wifi stack is quite poor.
For the rest hard to say if they are Muso or App issues, would need to sniff the network and get Muso and the App debug logs to really understand what is the problem…I would not be surprised most are App issues when I see the poor quality of the Android version especially. My experience with the iOS App is much better but I’m not an Apple guy so I would appreciate a major step-up in the next android release.

If someone from Naim is looking at this thread, I’m happy to support the testing and send logs if needed.
Again, I’m really not here to bash Naim and the Muso, as I said I really enjoy the Muso now that I managed to work around all those problems, but I really beleive Naim needs to do seriously improve their App/Network implementation (especially on Android)

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Hi, no sniffing the network won’t help necessarily, you will need sniff the Wifi protocol interactions which effectively is the physical layer, and also look at the protocol exchange between your APs which may traverse your home layer 2 network… and there is no reason why a device should be supporting advanced features like hidden SSIDs for the use cases we are using…
There are far more relevant capabilities for our uses such as support for WMM, but then the vast majority of consumer and SO-HO Wi-fi equipment doesn’t support this, so what would be the point…

I am a little confused by your commentary because Qb access point roaming is nothing to with the application whether it be iOS or Android. That is purely a client server relationship between your Qb and the web radio server or proxy.

So what Access Points are you using that you roam between, and I trust you have set them up as an ESSID as opposed to SSID? You almost certainly need to do this to support reliable operation for roaming as otherwise you will be switching between WLANs as opposed to roaming between APs … and that is highly likely to break the connection…

The Qb Wifi stack seems to use Liteon Technology Wifi adapter technology and looks to be a good implementation from what can I see.

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I was having discovery issues in the Android application and only to the wireless QB’s, my NDX/NDS and wired QB were fine.

I found moving the phone that was running the Naim application over to the 2.4ghz from my 5ghz network resolved the issue.

This kind of adds some weight to Simons diagnosis about the network equipment not conforming correctly to specification. My router and additional access point is all Draytek so it’s hardly low end shabby ISP provided equipment.

No AP roaming in my set-up, I have a single access point which is my ISP router. Or maybe device moving from 2.4GHz to 5GHz is some sort of “internal” AP roaming (sorry not an expert)?
In any case, my point is again that only Muso has issues among the 20+ devices active on my network (and some are quite old/cheap stuff) so even if it turns out the router is not fully following the Wifi standard/spec then the conclusion is that the Muso is the less robust/resilient implementation of all my devices.

I would not consider hidden SSID as “advanced” feature honestly, this is now standard in most of Wifi products since years (including Smart TVs). In my case it simply needed because my home Wifi network had a hidden SSID so was not expecting I had to change this only for the Muso, which in the end makes the Wifi network more vulnerable (not that hidden SSID is the graal of security but still you’re more vulnerable without…)

As for iOS vs. Android, without any logs or traces of the problem hard to conclude, I just observe that I have less problems with the iOS App.

I will do more test anyway, I’ve made all those changes in my Wifi set-up to make sure it works fine but it could be the only 1 is enough (like fixed IP for instance)

Had similar problems with various equipment until I installed a BT mesh WiFi in conjunction with sky broadband router, I have 3 qbs around the house plus the usual phones tablets 2 laptops and PC and 2 smart tv.
Uniti core, nd5xs work seamlessly, sky q tv all perform faultlessly since installed mesh WiFi.

So called hidden SSID or more accurately non broadcast wlan is not valid 802.11… so anyone adopting it is doing so at risk. It’s also provides an increased security vulnerability on large Wifi networks… much verbiage on this in enterprise wlan setups. And therefore it really is not recommended in professional setups… so I am glad Naim don’t support it…and it would require specific Naim Wifi adapter support to operate outside the 802.11 spec, and probe every 60 seconds.

As far as the moving between Wifi ISM bands, then whether it’s a roam or not is entirely down to your Wifi access point and how it’s setup. If it’s common security authentication and SSID name across the two, then it should be able to roam, and most more capable access points can be set to load balance or steer a preference between the two bands. If this is not the case then you are most likely switching, like un plugging and replugging an Ethernet lead, and you may loose your connection.

Unfortunately my Qb is still not working :-1::cry::rage:

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Did you ever test it at somebody else’s house?

Still not working with an Ethernet connection?
Does airplay work to it?

The OP was asking for recommended alternatives. So far I have only seen the Dali Katch mentioned. I may have missed others that have been mentioned. I am also considering alternatives to the Muso and Qb, not least because of the concerns mentioned in this thread, but also because they may soon be superseded. I have looked at the Dynaudio Music series (4 models in the range), the Ruark MRx and the Devialet Phantom Reactor 600 and 900, but not had the chance to properly audition any. One dealer I spoke to suggested the Phantom Reactor is better than the Muso. I remain to be convinced. The original Muso will take some beating.

Guinnless, no not checked elsewhere as yet?

Simon in Suffolk, it was working briefly with an Ethernet cable, not tried Airplay

So dropouts with the Ethernet cable?
If so do try Airplay with Ethernet…

Thanks @AndrewG ! @Jan-Erik_Nordoen also made some suggestions as to alternatives.

Simon in Suffolk, Will give it a try…

Just an update on my system. Both my Nova & Muso are hard wired to my network. I have a BT Home Hub 5 and using an Android 8 phone for the app. I’ve split the 2.4ghz & 5 ghz wifi on my hub. It’s pretty clear that the 5ghz Wifi has a reliable range of less than 5m. The Naim app was dropping back to ‘searching for rooms’ about every minute and then not reliably operating when found, sitting about 10m from the hub and with the wifi not split. If I stand next to the Hub the app works reliably on 5ghz. Since Tuesday I have my phone connecting to just the 2.4ghz wifi and everything has worked perfectly. The app finds my rooms straight away and has not dropped back to ‘searching for rooms’ at all. I’m now very happy with its performance and operation. To me this suggests that the App is not very resilient when the Wifi signal is marginal. I don’t know enough about Wifi s/ware to know whether this is a fixable issue or not, but hope this helps other users

To be honest from your description, the hardware and/or operating system you run your app on looks suspect. Have you tried running it on a different device and OS. Things like reliable Wifi connectivity are not much to do with the app, but the device Wifi hardware, drivers and operating system. The app needs to take these for granted, ie that is a key purpose of an operating system the app runs on.

Must say I was a little bewildered by the OPs assertion that any problem must be a Naim problem. There are undoubtedly issues with streaming devices for many reasons as this forum bears testimony but on balance it’s always most likely the quirks of your own setup rather than the device or app and that’s always the place to start.