Naim and Dynaudio Thread

[Analogmusic]

This is from an old Naim dealer manual

System Precedence:

The choice of components for a hi-fi system should be governed by the basic rule that no component can improve the quality of its incoming signal. The very best that any individual component can do is deal faithfully with its input without loss of musical information.

A simple and logical hierarchy is thus established. Source components of a system, such as the tuner, compact disc player, tape and record player come first as they define the absolute signal quality retrieved from the storage or carrier medium.

The preamplifier and power amplifier come next, in that order. If the preamp is inadequate it will make nonsense of the demands of a good source, but neither amp nor preamp can improve the quality of their incoming signal. In fact the better they are, the more clearly they will expose, instead of masking, any faults in that signal.

Thus loudspeakers are last in the hierarchy. As the slave of the amplifier, even moderate speakers properly driven by a very good amplifier will outperform speakers that are potentially the best possible, but are less well driven. A loudspeaker cannot improve the quality of its incoming signal.

The aim of a good system is to allow you to respond to music without the system getting in the way, and a well balanced system made up of very moderate components that mask each other’s faults may allow you to do this better than a badly balanced system containing the best amplifier or the best loudspeakers that can be obtained.

The better the system the more the intentions of the composer will be revealed in the skill and feeling of the players and the precise quality of the instruments. The less good the system the more this will be obscured by minute alterations of pitch and amplitude.

Music is a language, and in order to understand what the musicians and composer were trying to communicate to the listener, it is not only important to hear all the notes played by the musicians, but also to be able to hear whether they were enjoying themselves; intonation, which is so much a part of the spoken word, is also vital to the understanding of a piece of music.

[litemotiv]

@Analogmusic

Thus loudspeakers are last in the hierarchy. As the slave of the amplifier, even moderate speakers properly driven by a very good amplifier will outperform speakers that are potentially the best possible, but are less well driven. A loudspeaker cannot improve the quality of its incoming signal.

I understand the points above from Naim’s perspective, or when someone is trying to create (or sell) the absolute best system possible.

From a listening pleasure standpoint i think i myself approach it the other way around though.

Some 25 years ago i bought my first pair of high quality speakers, a pair of Dynaudio Contours (second hand), and it completely changed my musical experience. Man i loved those speakers, and even with my home-made passive pre-amp and decent but middle of the road NAD power amp at the time, they made listening to music so much fun.

When i got to know them better with time, the Dynaudios helped me to hear the weaker spots in the rest of the chain, which then led to a slow but adventurous journey to replace other components. All this time, having great fun listening to the system on a daily basis. My hearing wasn’t trained yet for all the tiny subtleties in the music, so i learned and grew along with the system.

I didn’t buy my first decent Naim amp until about 5 years ago, and while i loved it and has made me look a lot more at the input stage of the chain, the impact of that upgrade was a lot less severe (to me) than when i got that first set of Dynaudios. Buying those speakers has been the single most important upgrade in my audio journey, and for years i didn’t feel the need to upgrade other parts because the system was just so enjoyable to listen to.

When we are still untrained, our hearing is quite crude, so my personal mantra is to upgrade the ‘crudest’ parts of the chain first, which are usually the speakers. Start with the things that are most easily to differentiate for you, and work your way up to the start of the chain to gradually improve finesse.

[Analogmusic]

But your profile says you have Uniti Nova/Spendor A4 now

I understand what you are saying and can relate to it somehow, I have had the good luck (being into hi-fi for the last 40 years) to test all that I could have dreamt about 40 years ago, the best speakers, preamps, amps and sources

and it was only in the last 10 years where I could do all the testing that I can know what really gives my ears musical satisfaction and can really appreciate the early wisdom of Naim’s advice going back also 4 decades

for me - it’s really about the source - the amplifier is maybe next and speakers well - how many of these 5000 GBP speakers with superior drivers do you hear in live concerts?

they use pretty average speakers, able to tolerate very large SPL, but to my ears all the musicality is still intact.

I think it’s really extraordinary that many speaker companies think it is ok to charge upwards of 5000 GBP for a tiny bookshelf speaker.

Nowadays one can assemble a very good hi-fi with a mobile phone, audioquest dragonfly DAC - and some very modest powered speakers and really enjoy music. Pay a little more and you get to the Chord Mojo and that’s really a fun system that can give hours of musical enjoyment.

as for speakers first, my learning from the decade is that speakers should come last as Naim advised, and to really take advantage of the bookshelf speaker that costs 5500 GBP one must have a source, preamp, amp and cables which are all premium - hi end to really get your money’s worth out that speaker.

sure for very rich people it’s maybe ok - but the heritage looks very poor value for money to me, my opinion, my money, my ears.

after all the cabinet still made of MDF?

[litemotiv]

Yes that’s right, the Dynaudios were moved to my parents eventually where they still are. The Spendor A4’s are sonically quite close to the Contours, i think i like them equally.

The Contours i had were standmounted and i wanted to try out floorstanders for a change, so i opted to go for the Spendors just to listen to something different for a while. A pair of larger Dynaudios would also have been a great choice obviously. I also tried some B&W’s but i didn’t enjoy them quite as much.

For me personally the sweet spot in speaker spending i think is around 2000-2500 for good standmounts/monitors and perhaps 3000-3500 for floorstanders, that’s what seems to give me the most ‘audible improvement per eur/gbp’ considering the rest of my chain. Above that i find it difficult to correlate the extra spending to actual improvements in sound quality that validate the purchase price.

I wouldn’t be in the market for the Heritage myself personally, but other people may hear or value different things than i do, so there is probably a market for it. The Special 40’s i would have certainly considered had i been looking for bookshelves at the time!

[Analogmusic]

I agree with your figures 2000 to 2500 GBP for a stand mounter and 3000 to 3500 for floorstanders.

I remember the price increase from the B&W 805S speaker to the diamond version, it was justified by B&W saying those diamond tweeters are really expensive to make.

Somehow I can’t understand any explanation in manufacturing cost from the Chinese owned Dynaudio company to justify the heritage price of 5500 GBP. seems to use the same esotar 3 tweeter as the confidence line - and that’s about it. The mundorf capacitors they use can’t be that expensive - B&W used them in the 1600 GBP 805S.

No exotic materials like B&W diamonds to justify the price.

That’s a picture of the heritage insides below

[litemotiv]

I think a lot of high end brands are getting a bit overpriced these days, one reason may be that instead of catering primarily to audiophiles, they are starting to cater more to luxury buyers in upcoming markets such as China.

At the same time, startup companies from China are starting to produce pretty good high end equipment that they are selling in the west very competitively, think of the influx of affordable R2R DACS and tube amps for instance.

So there is an interesting dynamic going on here. I wonder how this is going to impact the speaker market as well in time. I haven’t really paid attention to it but i wouldn’t rule out the possibility that a few shifts will be coming up there as well, in the next few years.

[Analogmusic]

the material on top of the crossover looks pretty sloppy to me, plus to cotton on top of that doesn’t look very neat.

Dynaudio thinks though that picture is one of a 5500 GBP speaker.

[litemotiv]

@Analogmusic

the material on top of the crossover looks pretty sloppy to me, plus to cotton on top of that doesn’t look very neat.

I agree it doesn’t look that special. It looks a lot like my 25 year old Contours actually, which were 2500 Dutch guilders (1250 euro) new at the time.

[TheKevster]

@Analogmusic

Somehow I can’t understand any explanation in manufacturing cost from the Chinese owned Dynaudio company to justify the heritage price of 5500 GBP.

Dynaudio is of course part-owned by the Chinese company Goertek (which makes high-quality components for the likes of Sony and Samsung) but the speakers are still designed and made in Denmark (some cabinets are made in Latvia, a country renowned for wood craftsmenship; and some drivers/driver elements in China).

I’m not sure what your point is, unless it’s to rather complacently infer that the Chinese only churn out cheap crap in slave-labour conditions; which of course they do, up to a point, but China is also one of the world’s leading hi-tech nations – they don’t just make Crosleys and £10 bluetooth speakers, you know. For example, if you’ve ever used any of the Chinese high-speed train networks (much of the track, infrastructure and rolling stock is now domestically built), you’ll know that only the Japanese surpass them in this respect.

And why would a venerable – and pro audio – brand like Dynaudio lower its standards just because of a change of ownership? That would be business suicide.

You appear not to understand the concept of value (which is not the same as price). Most “luxury” or “premium” goods, enjoy big margins and are usually worth a great deal more than the sum of their parts.

I have seen and heard the Heritage Specials, and I consider them to be good value, beautifully made and even better sounding. You appear to have looked at a diagram and some photos and have concluded they are overpriced. Fine, nobody’s forcing you to buy them. You can always go on the internet to complain about it too…

[steviebee]

As the y were mentioned up thread, I’ve got to be honest, it wasn’t necessarily the diamond tweeter that sold us on our 805 D3 special edition (though the SQ and ex-dem price certainly helped!)

Not my pic, but it shows the finish so beautifully!

[litemotiv]

@TheKevster

You appear not to understand the concept of value (which is not the same as price). Most “luxury” or “premium” goods, enjoy big margins and are usually worth a great deal more than the sum of their parts.

Is it weird of me to say i kind of agree with you both?

I do agree that the asking price for the Heritage seems quite steep, however i also feel that price does not necessarily equal value, and there may well be circumstances in which they would make an excellent purchase for a certain situation. I think they shouldn’t be discarded on price alone, however the price could warrant some extra scrutiny to determine if they really fit the bill.

There are other small speakers in the same price range that also bring a lot of heated debate between audio enthousiasts, such as the Boenicke W5:

Some people say they’re beautifully built and artistically sounding, others argue that they’re just small wooden boxes with a pair of average drivers in them.

I think in the end the only way to determine for yourself is to see and hear them up close, and then decide if you find them worth the price…

[Analogmusic]

This kind of luxury pricing only applies maybe companies like Louis Vuitton and Channel which are pedigreed French owned brands…

In audio for me it’s ONLY about the engineering and performance

I’m priced out of even auditioning a 5500 gbp standpoint as laws of physics and cabinet volume apply.

How many ladders is one supposed to climb in audio

source?
preamp?
amp?
cables?
speaker?
rack?

last but certainly not the least - the music i.e. the vinyl, the CD collection?

That’s why products like the Chord Mojo, and Hugo are such winners and iconic - plug in headphones with a mobile phone for a source, and all the fun one could hope for

same for the KEF Meta LS50 actives, priced just about right, and huge sound, musicality and enjoyment… not to mention the new KEF Meta LS50, which is an absolutely brilliant product at the right price.

we will see if the heritage speaker ever reaches such iconic status.

[TheKevster]

@Analogmusic

This kind of luxury pricing only applies maybe companies like Louis Vuitton and Channel which are pedigreed French owned brands…

I worked for Louis Vuitton’s advertising agency for six years, so I know a bit about them. While the company – which is owned by a French conglomerate – puts out slick ads and rigorously protects its IP, its products simply don’t have the cachet they once did. Nobody with any class or taste would be seen dead with LV luggage anymore, it’s a product for rich, vulgar, flashy chavs these days. Not so much pedigree as a bit of a mongrel now, as so many bits of the LV operation are outsouced. A much better example of what I think you might be getting at would be Hermès, which still has the pedigree you’re talking about.

we will see if the heritage speaker ever reaches such iconic status.

I have to ask, who cares? If the people who buy the product in question like it and get many years’ enjoyment out of it/them, then that’s all that matters. I mean, on the whole I’d buy a bit of kit because I liked the sound it made, rather than because some guy on the interwebs says it’s “iconic.” Besides, what do you mean by “iconic” anyway? The word has been so over and mis used that it is virtually devoid of any real meaning.

Apart from that I have no idea of the point you’re trying to make and I’m not certain you do either.

[Extonred]

Same here

[ChilledBeams]

Hi All - Currently running Kef LS50 & Naim Atom. Anybody had experiance with those speakers and how would they compare to Dynaudio lineup? Looking for an upgrade with slightly warmer sound, what would work better Evoke 20 or Special 40?

[SJT]

Yes I can comment here. I replaced LS50 with Special 40 in my main rig. Pic of my special 40s on the first post of this thread!! The LS50 is very good - it has precise treble and very good imaging. I think the Special 40 has bigger and deeper bass and sweeter treble (but no less precise), and I think this corresponds to your wanting a slightly warmer sound. My feeling is that the Special 40s are easier on the ear but really kick when you want them to. The special 40s feel like a touch of class. I havent found a music genre they are uncomfortable with. They can have monster bass for their size as well. But! The LS50s are still great speakers and killer value. I still have my LS50s which I use in the office driven by DAC-V1 and NAP 100, and this lot still sounds great to my ears.

My special 40s are driven with NAP 250. One thing that might be worth taking advice on is that the Dynaudio speakers like a bit of power and whether the Atom is OK to drive them. When I ordered mine the first Q the dealer asked was “what amp do you have?” and I said 250 and he said OK.

I bought my special 40 in Jan 2019. I couldn’t test them beforehand so I bought them blind based on eloquent posts on this forum by Kevster (plus every review I read loved them). I am delighted with them and have no intention of replacing them for a long time. Hope this helps.

[Analogmusic]

the point is quite clear,

1. the heritage is way overpriced.
2. this was certainly not the right time in terms of corona and limited access to dealers to release a speaker that only has 2500 numbers in production.
3. if the heritage is a return to the original dynaudio sound (with impedance correction and first order crossover) then the company seems to be confused. is there an issue with the new dynaudio sound? why the need for this heritage that seems to go back to the old dynaudio sound?
4. what I mean by iconic is by comparison to the company’s own so called “legendary speakers”, like the special 25. If dynaudio is trying to create another special 25 (and they claim they are) - it seems like a feeble and ill conceived attempt.

[cat345]

Don’t want to mess things up but Heritage Specials are not Special 25s which are larger, have 8 inch woofers and are 3db more efficient.

I agree with you, they are way overpriced !

[Hifi-dog]

i use evoke 10 in a 4 x 3.4 room and they have a warmth and weight that belies their size, but also open, articulate and sweet detailed highs, on the end of a supernait 2

[pumpexch]

Surely there is only one issue, perhaps split into two parts: how well do they reproduce the music and how does their price compare with an equivalent product? I have Kudos Titan 808s but several Sonus Faber speakers are stunningly beautiful and look like they cost a great deal more but I bought the Titans having regard to the evaluation above