I may be wrong but don’t think the 5si can be used in combination with a nap 300. Someone more knowledgable will confirm, or not.
I think @Richard.Dane has covered this in his reply. Good luck with the system building.
Most people here are using Naim preamps with the 300DR, with only a few choosing to go down any other route. As you are contemplating a 300 DR, I assume you are buying used as it is discontinued. Therefore assuming your preamp purchase would be used, a 282 , 252 or 552 (in ascending order of performance) would be the the way to go. Each needs a separate power supply.
If you are not already aware:
282 requires a NAPSC which comes with it, plus a separate HiCap, two HiCaps or a SuperCap.
252 requires a SuperCap.
552 comes with its own specific dedicated supply.
My own preference would be for a 252 and SuperCap as a minimum for the 300 DR. Used 552 is an even even better option if funds permit.
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i’ would be looking to move on from the 5si, and just go with a amp-pre amp set up.
Not sure if it would be a naim pre-amp (yes I know), I just like a pre amp that ives me more feedback like volume etc.
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i’m confused. Aren’t XLR balanced, and RCA unbalanced?
RCA Phono is single ended, yes. But the XLR Cannon can be used either balanced or unbalanced. In the case of the NAP300, Naim used them unbalanced.
Note that Naim power amps can perform unpredictably with other brands of pre-amp, and are best matched with Naim’s own pre-amps (more than the sum of the parts really) for which they were designed. Naim pre-amps though will work with a wide variety of other banded power amps.
If considering a NAP300 then you should aim for the best pre-amp you can; A NAC282 with a Hicap would be bare minimum, better would be a NAC252/Supercap, and much better a NAC552. It goes without saying that for such a pre/power combination, a top source is a must. No point without as the amp cannot improve the source and may just better expose any weaknesses.
Don’t use kimber cables with Naim amps, this should be avoided due to capacitance / inductance values being the opposite to naca5.
Your 5si is going to get hot.
Naim power amps work best with naim preamps and vice versa.
So ideally with a nap300 this will be nac252/supercap.
This is an amp with an rrp of £8600, plus 252 £7700 plus supercap £5300. £20k is serious money for a seriously good system. Please try to partner it correctly or you’ll never fully realise its potential. It will also sound nothing like the 5si.
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geez i can’t believe naim is so finicky. i have used all sorts of combinations over the years; Pass labs, Atma-sphere OTL amps, Mcintosh, Rotel, Kimber, Cardas, audioquest, with never any issues.
It’s not finicky; it’s all about synergy.
well a couple posts above there is a line about “naim amps can perform unpredictably with other pre-amps”, there is a line about kimber speaker cables being bad for naim, they sound poor and overheat…i don’t know it all sounds strange…I’m not meaning to judge peoples responses but in 25 years of this hobby i have never had issues using one brand with another, mixing brands…either people are over reacting or naim has some serious design flaws…
The FAQ explains some things here. Naim are rather different. For one thing, the pre-amps and power amps have been designed to work optimally together as two halves of the whole “amplifier”. To that end, it’s most unusual to use a Naim power amp without a Naim pre-amp to partner, and, they are definitely greater than the sum of the individual parts. The Naim power amps, at least from 250 upwards, are a very rare thing indeed - fully regulated power amps. This is extremely hard to do properly, essentailly like building two amps in one - one amp to regulate the other, but means their performance is kept in tight control where other unregulated designs can let things slide a bit when the going gets tough. The amps were also designed rather elegantly without the usual added inductance that most amp designers use to ensure stability - instead they were designed to take into account the inductance from the speaker cable, so the additional inductance in the output was not needed, and resulted in much better performance. The only caveat with this is that the speaker cable; has to be “known” thing with defined parameters - in this case of low capacitance and moderately high inductance and of at least 3.5m per channel, up to 20m before any obvious deterioration in performance.
I guess you could say that Naim have not been ones to follow the herd and have always done things a bit differently to other Hifi companies. They are highly respected in the Hifi world and have a very loyal and passionate customer base - for good reason.
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well thank you, that does clear some things up, but it disappoints me a bit as I had hoped to pair my Mcintosh pre-amp with a Naim amplifier.
As for speaker cables, I don’t really have any loyalty to Kimber…so I can easily change to Naim.
I’m still confused about the interconnects though…so Naim has DIN sockets on the amps, and there is an adaptor that converts hat to an XLR plug?
But according to Naim the power amps from 250Dr and onwards can be used with any speaker cable since they now have the added inductance. At least that is what @110dB wrote IIRC.
Also could you please expand on the reason why Naim preamps and power amps complement or build on each other? Are they tuned in the frequency so they become neutral when put together or what is the design choice making it so?
No added inductance - my understanding is that the current amps are far more tolerant of a wide range of speaker cable, and likely won’t damage them, but that does not mean they will be an optimal match.
As for the pre/power matching, it’s down to a variety of factors, but perhaps most importantly is due to the filtering of anything way outside of the music bandwidth (often called bandwidth limiting) that Naim employs - most critically at the pre-amp end, but also at the power amp. As JV explained back in the original forum days;
…the real art… …is to ensure that the amplifier is not called upon to drive a load with a signal outside its operating envelope, and we go to great lengths to band limit (or reduce the HF content of) the signal fed to the power amp to make sure this does not happen.
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With a couple of exceptions, you’d connect the 300 power amp to the outputs on the power supply that powers the preamp. The power supply outputs - on the back of the Hicap, Supercap etc are 4 pin din sockets. The inputs on the 300 are unbalanced XLRs, so the leads that come packed with the 300 have DIN on one end and XLR on the other. It’s very simple.
As said, Naim pre and power amps are made to work together as one. Of course you can mix and match, but results will be unpredictable, which is pretty obvious really. The output from the preamp determines the operating environment for the power amp so if you choose a different pre the power amp may not operate as intended.
Why not try a Naim preamp with the 300 and compare with your preamp. If you like the Nait and want more it seems logical to have a whole Naim amp, rather than just half. Ultimately, if you don’t like the way Naim do things, then maybe it’s just not for you.
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@Richard.Dane I run my 300DR with a Manley Labs 300B preamp and it honestly sounds pretty darned fabulous, albeit with a some slight rounding and lacking that last scintilla of slam.
Would you say it’s a bad match, electrically speaking? I am planning on relegating the Manley to a dedicated headphone amp (it’s 15 years old now albeit with upgraded valves) and upgrading to either a more upmarket pre or ditching the 300 DR entirely for something like the Gryphon Diablo 333.
I honestly couldn’t say Taake. I’m sure there are some combinations that work well, just no guarantees. As ever, let your ears decide if it works or not.
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that does clear things up. I just hadn’t encountered any equipment before that had some of the uniqueness of Naim.
I find the Naim sound very suitable to my liking, but its the looks that I just can’t get around (and the awful thud that comes through the speakers when I turn it off). I like to know my exact volume, with a number. I also find, at least on the 5SI, the volume on the remote has a delay which also is off putting (any the noise the volume knob makes). I also like tone controls (yes I know),.
could i use a nac 202? i then assume i would use din to din?
Are there different din sockets?
You could use a NAC202, if you had a Hicap powering the NAC202, but it’s not the best match. You need to be aware of the hierarchy in the system, and most precisely the amp chain - the pre-amp is the more critical half of the amp pairing and so you would want a pre-amp of a similar or superior level to the power amp.
Many years back at the factory I would demonstrate this by two extreme system examples of similar cost, with the same source (CDS3) and speakers (SL2); the first was a NAC112x + Flatcap pre-amp pairing fronting a NAP500. The second was a NAC552 + PS pre-amp fronting a NAP150x. The second system was so much better than the first, it left nobody in any doubt of the importance of the pre-amp in the pre/power pairing. As the old Pirelli ads used to say, “power is nothing without control”…
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How would you use din to din? The 300 has XLRs. To match the 300 you’d want a 282 at the very least. I wonder if you are overreaching here. Have you considered a Supernait 3 if you want more of the Naim experience?