Sorry but i disagree here, it should always come down to one’s own ears, otherwise your’e putting yourself in a vulnerable position, especially around a savvy salesman at least.
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The brain is far, far more powerful than the ears.
I remember an piece of modern art where we saw a dog barking on a video screen. A friend asked the next room if I did hear the dog, I said yes, but there was no sound at all. It was entirely constructed by imagination.
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Well it should, but is a fact that we don’t work this way. If we did, mankind would not have had a need to develop scientific measurement systems and statistics at all, we could just rely on our feelings.
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Stu, having a similar set up to yours: my NDX needed service. I got a played in NDX2 to listen just for an hour (PS555DR was warmed up): more space, more detail, but the sound was ,too cold’. Harsh. Not to my taste at all. Bought an NDS used a couple of months later. Less space, more rhythm, warmer, rounder sound, …perfectly happy with it. Admittedly I only want to download from Qobuz, if at all. Also stream Tidal through Apple TV/optical cable…
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I’m secure in myself, i know what i like and what i don’t like regardless of anything else around me. Otherwise what’s the point?
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OK, if you say so.
(Please take this in the context of my long post a bit further up: I have no doubts whatsoever about my system’s qualities, as I am sure you don’t either. But “I cannot be unduly influenced in any way” is just never true)
Unless, of course, there wasn’t objectively much difference. I think as always the truth is in the middle. @litemotiv is right that our ears and memory of sound are horribly unreliable, but preference is also a big factor. As are other factors like the experience (vinyl) and preference.
But indeed, especially with time between sessions we will likely be influenced by price, looks, what we’ve been told etc.
I have a tube phono pre, no one is going to claim tubes are objectively better than solid state. I like it’s sound.
I like my TTs, no one can objectively claim it’s a great medium. I love it.
My speakers, after auditioning, don’t measure that well, but I liked them best. Interesting observation is that I found them close to a very good measuring pair.
One thing that sometimes bothers me here is that people because there might be things we can’t measure, ignore/discount measurements. Just accept that what you prefer might bot be the best objectively, or that there’s things we can’t measure. But don’t pretend science doesn’t exist.
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There are some folks out there who can’t really hear much of a difference between any of it and thinks it all sounds the same regardless. The lucky ones i guess, or not…
See, I don’t believe there isn’t a difference. These people have spent their lives with these instruments, heard and played them in all kinds of settings from hotel rooms to the greatest concert halls of the world, and came to the conclusion that there is a difference. (And one that is worth the hassle of owning a Stradivarius or similar). There’s a difference between listening for 30 seconds to be quizzed for your abilities (and this is what it becomes, a test of people and not instruments) and hearing an instrument in concert for two hours. Mind, they themselves and centuries of musicians before them may have fallen for a mass psychosis and it would not be he first one in human history, but I don’t believe it.
I am in agreement with the next paragraphs of your posts, but I am bowing before this one:
Very well said, Sir. (Of course also applicable vice versa, mainly on other forums)
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Many have a preconceived notion that there is no difference, or that they are not learned enough to hear it, and it is often combined with simply being not that interested in music. Plus, never really listened to a good system. Then put them in a setting that is not ideal and put them under pressure and they will just clam up and refuse, like in a school test.
Yet, see my wife example, provide a welcoming setting and the time to listen, and they do hear and feel it. Most, at least. They may still not care or not consider it a worthwhile expense (but they can now see the difference between not caring and not hearing)
It is a funny thing with the ears/brain and in particular with regard to music. Many of the above things are just as true for watching things, but we are wired differently in this regard. Nobody would claim that there is no audiovisual difference between watching a movie at home with the laptop speakers or even a soundbar or cheap 5.1, and watching it in a movie theater. The simple fact that it is commonly accepted, in itself, has an effect on predispositions. And in this context, nobody disagrees that the audio part is also obviously different.
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Back a few years, I paid a lot more money to upgrade from an NDX to an NDS plus a 555 PS. I really enjoyed the new levels of detail and wider sound stage. I had many great hours listening through the NDS.
The jump to the ND555 - to my ears - was not as big.
Looking back, if you can ‘live’ with Tidal, iRadio, uServe/NAS, & Roon as sources for your music. Then, at that price, I see it as a great bargain. Go for it.
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I’m inclined to agree about the NDS. I never actually bought an NDS, but I’ve heard some fantastic systems fronted by them. For me, the improvements that the ND555 brings do not justify the price, which leaves an NDS owner with nowhere to go.
Having decided to stick at NDX level (with an external DAC instead of climbing the PSU upgrade ladder) jumping to the new streaming platform for Qobuz, Roon etc. is an easier jump to make.
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Yes exactly, and @Feckspeck was saying the same thing. I really don’t want a streaming service, but will most likely use Qobuz for downloading hi-res files for my NAS, plus iradio of course.
If I do want to stream Qobuz, I’ll add an ND5 XS2 to the NDS, and still have that glorious NDS sound.
This is assuming that Qobuz ever f&#@$&!! comes to Canada …
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A significant factor, though, is what each of us perceives as ‘very very expensive.’
I think @litemotiv has a point. If you want to spend $10,000 on something, you are likely to consider it superior to a $5,000 alternative, but that a $20,000 option isn’t worth the extra money.
Whereas someone wanting to spend $20,000 is likely to think it superior to the $10,000 alternative, and so-on.
The F502SP speakers I bought for $8,500 were better to my ears than the $3,500 F502 standards, but I can easily understand someone else thinking that was crazy money and not worth the extra outlay at all.
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This is the main point yes, and why “Trust your ears” is not good advice in my view.
I think it’s interesting that a lot of the folks who would upvote Richard’s “Trust your ears” comment, and who may own expensive streamers like the NDS, ND555 etc themselves, are just as likely to report completely contradictory reports about the sound quality of streamer firmware updates.
With each new streamer firmware we see reports ranging from ‘much improved bass’ to ‘too much bass’ to ‘sounds anemic’, ‘too much treble’ etc.
At the same time people in this thread are sure that the NDS is a better sounding streamer than for instance the NDX2, because they can ‘hear’ it.
So apparently people can never come to the same conclusion about how firmware sounds, but they can all come to the same conclusion about which products are best sounding.
There is no logical or consistent connection to be made there. The only conclusion is that people by default are inclined to feel that the more expensive device is ‘better’, regardless of how they actually describe the sound quality when there is for instance a firmware update.
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I trust my ears but only in long term tests, head to Head everything sounds nice with small differences
Try to listen for a week or two and then change to a lesser component that you will hear the fall and ask what the hell just happened
My last one was one vs two PS on ND555
I realized the difference when I disconnected after a a month….
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I don’t think that you can make such generalisations as this as everybody is different.
I accept that there may be some people whose judgement is influenced by an item’s price tag but you can’t pigeonhole everyone into that category.
I’ve mentioned before that I compared an nDac to an NDX2. I really wanted to prefer the NDX2 as it had features that I’d find useful like Chromecast & Airplay. For sure it had the higher price tag. However, I trusted my ears and they told me that I preferred the cheaper nDac.
If one is buying a piece of equipment whose primary function is to listen to then I personally don’t know how it can’t be your ears that you trust.
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I think this is the contradiction that nicely sums up why this is such a delightful hobby that keeps going.
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Yes i’m ofcourse well aware of the contradiction in my statement!
We only have our ears to judge what sounds good, and at the same time we shouldn’t trust our ears because we deceive ourselves easily.
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Perhaps because overall performance is much more than just the cosmetic aspects of sound that can be easily differentiated in a quick comparison. Quantity of bass, treble, “grain”, “smoothness” etc… are all part of these cosmetics. Much harder to quantify are aspects of performance that allow you to feel involved and moved by the music, or not. This is at a far more fundamental level and can take a little time to really appreciate.
As for being pre-disposed to think that the more expensive bit of kit will always be best, I’m not sure I agree here. Take my own experience with choosing DAPs. I either bought or borrowed at least 10 different DAPs. Much the most expensive were examples from Sony and Astell & Kern . They certainly looked and felt the part - gorgeous, tactile bits of kit, and with lovely big screens and in the case of the A&Ks at least, plenty of features including streaming capabilities. At the other end of the scale was the Ponoplayer. It was cheapest by far, and looked it, like it had been made by Fisher Price. Usability was not that great, the screen almost unusable for anyone with adult hands and fingers, battery life not great, not many features, the list of negatives goes on. And yet… the little Pono was the one I kept coming back to, and the one I could listen to longest regardless of whichever headphones I was using. It wasn’t perfect, not by a long shot, and for overall cosmetic aspects of sound, most of the others were often way ahead in things like bass “slam” and crystal high frequencies, it could even come across as a bit “shy” at times. However, it had that elusive ability to engage me and lose me in the music, which try as I might, I just couldn’t get from the others, or at least not to the same extent. Things got even better when I used Senn HD600s, and better still when I went to balanced mode with the 600s on the Pono. So, it went from the ugly duckling also-ran - one you would almost certainly immediately dismiss on a quick test and listen - to eventually the one I loved and kept and use. This just from trusting what I heard rather than going by the spec, the price tag, the looks, the feel, the usability etc…
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