Nait XS upgrade

Hi-Fi Corner
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@Christopher_M
I don’t know… I am torn! Yesterday evening i thought that things got better (tuned a little with the spikes) and turned the arcam filter off. I thought it was acceptable then. But now I came home from work, listened and I think its a tad too boomy again. Not every song though, bb king the sky is crying is bad for instance. I always liked that song. Now i just hear the bass guitar too much. On the other hand, electronic songs with a lot of bass sound great! Bass is super tight.

@1970dazzler
Thank you! I’m really starting to think the room or placement has nothing to do with it. I moved the speakers away from corners, that didn’t improve much. I actually think midrange got worse.
Also, if I use the speakers with other amps the bass is much less, almost too thin.

I’m on the lookout at 2nd hand market for hicap or sn2… with mixed feelings. Because like you mention. The xs1 is a really capable thing. Best amp I’ve ever had. And i had a lot of them.

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The great unknown (certainly to me, though I am the least of it) is how good your source is when compared with a Naim ND5XS2 or NDX2?

I have only heard the NDX2 twice. The first time was when I went to my dealer for a speaker dem. (I bought them). But just imagine it though, a dealer using a top flight source into a Nait XS3 and the speakers I was interested in. Beyond canny.

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Maybe some speaker isolation? Gaias worked well for me

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@Christopher_M
That’s evil! Now you made me look for a naim streamer! No, apple music lossless always sounded good for me in combo with the arcam dac, which is also very good. I still have a little arcam RDAC or topping D10. I can try if these DAC’s improve bass. Could be! I’ll give it a try. I also know the topping is very harsh in the treble while the arcam rDAC doesn’t have a great soundstage… But it’s worth a try to evaluate the bass response!

@Mikee: now the speakers are standing on soundcare superspikes, they’re doing their job I think. Yesterday I’ve put my ear next to the bass port, coz I suddenly had some doubts, maybe the rolling thunder bass was coming from my midrange drivers. No, it’s not! So I’ve put my ears next to the bass port, the rolling bass really comes from in there. So don’t think spikes or insulation might fix it. There’s really rolling thunder inside the speaker’s cabinet.

edit: now I did start some reading on it, actually these might work to reduce cabinet vibration… Hmm, the cheaper solution to test this would be some foam pads… Might check this too!

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Innocent, your Honour!

I was simply following the logic of @Richard.Dane 's post about the CDX2, above.

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I’ve had a Naitxs and can confirm it is capable. But Naim amps are also (more?) sensitive of cable management and good connections in relation to other amps I had. Like good separation of signal and powercables, tight connections etc. Have you looked at that?

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Hi @Tiekie

Tried 3 different interconnects, my van den hull interconnects sound, imo, best.
Cables: tried normal copper speaker cables and then i tried others, don’t know the brand, they’re a little too short but were expensive. But I did not notice any improvement. I did check the cable length though, coz naim stipulates that cables should be min. 3.5 m long… Did consider going on the cables road though… was thinking of nac5 cables… But then again, I don’t think this will fix it. Don’t wanna start a crusade here… But I’m not a big believer in cables… Forget I said this!!!

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Hi Will,

I didn’t mean to get you on the cables road, it’s more the cablemanagement i was talking about. A signal cable parallel to the powercable can have effects like you experience, or a cat6 cable parallel to the signal is also not a good idea in my experience. I once had a powercable that made a bad connection, like a bit loose, which had a bad influence on the sound. It often can be simple things like this to affect the sound in a negative way like you describe.

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Just found a sn3 online for €1100. Worth a try?

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For that price it would be an absolute bargain as they usually sell for £2,250 or more. But if something looks too good to be true it usually is. You need to be very careful to check it’s not a scam, and only buy it if you can collect in person. Check it’s not stolen too. The seller may not know what it’s really worth, but that seems unlikely.

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As HH wisely counsels here, be very wary of such a tempting price.

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That does sound awfully cheap. Maybe it’s a SN1 listed as SN3? Even so…

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Thats what I thought! I’ll contact the lady. Maybe she doesnt know what she’s selling. If have experience with 2nd hand market. But I didn’t compare asking price with hifishark. Just thought the sn3 was in someway maybe inferior to the sn2 which is always around €2500

But thanks for the headsup!

34

Dear Will3,

I think your issue is a matter of maths. If your speakers have a 4-ohm impedance nominal, they may require an amp that can handle the low end.

I think you have two options for you and neither is cheap.

Replace the speakers that an XS amplifier can handle or replace the amplifier that can handle the speakers.

I do not know if you received an impedance graph with your speakers. Though if they dip below 4 to 2 ohms on the low end. An amplifier that can handle the required current and grip for the lows will be required. Possibly over time, you are becoming more of an audiophile and hearing the inequalities of your system.

I did try to expand the pic of your speaker qualities, though to no avail. If you could please kindly supply a link though this may not be possible on this forum. Possibly a dbSPL frequency response may help. However, I would like to know where the bottom end bottoms out.

It may be a jump to a system that incorporates a 250DR with whatever preamp. I have looked at all the UNITI gear, and they are specced into 8 ohms which leave you out. However, I am happy to be corrected. Please other forum members jump in.

I do not think your fix will be a simple tweak. I suspect more efficient speakers though that does not mean better sound. However, an amplifier with a better grunt that can handle low impedances is my gut feel.

I am no exponent of expensive systems, and as many may follow my posts, my system is very modest. CD5XS, Nait XS2, Flatcap XS, and a pair of modified Celestion SL6Si at a dB SPL of 84. The XS2 amplifier barely scratches it mathematically with regards to headroom, and in hindsight, if I had known better, an SN2 would have been a better match for these speakers.

Though, as many, I live with what I have and am happy and dream of better matches though my pocketbook does not allow it.

I am not recommending the SN2 or SN3. I think your situation requires better bottom-end control, thus a better amplifier or, as I have said, more efficient speakers, which does not mean better sound.

Your ears will have to be the judge at the end of the day.

I apologize for the ambiguity; that is the realization of a HIFI audio system.

Please reply if I may be of more help if I may.

Warm regards,

Mitch.

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@Gigantor

If I understand you correctly, you would go for better end amplification? That would be comparable to the denon pma 2000 mk4 which is a great stable amp. But as you know, it doesn’t have the magic that Naim has.

At the moment I’m experimenting with rubber pads underneath the speakers (instead of the soundcare spikes). Need to listen good tonight, but I think it might be a little better. Other dac’s: still need to test. There is only 24 hours in a day and I have a busy job and an even busier baby of 8 months. Weekend is coming!

Have a nice evening

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Dear Will3,

Thank you for the pdf link. I am sorry, as I do not read German, though what I could make out is that the speaker’s dBSPL is 90dB which is an efficient speaker, though I think our challenge is the 4-ohm nominal impedance.

There is a frequency response curve though no impedance curve. I think I will have to leave any decision to a NAIM dealer who would be more knowledgeable than I am with these speakers.

If I go by what you say about the bass being “boomy”. My money or for that your money, is that XS amplifier is not able to supply the necessary current to control these speakers. The speakers are rated at 300 watts, which I take to be RMS. This all points in my books that these speakers require an amplifier that can handle lower impedances than 4 ohms.

I sincerely think you are in NAP DR country for a suitable amplifier. I do not wish to spend your money though I hope an appropriately trained NAIM dealer can.

Warm regards,

Mitch (Australia).

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Hi @Gigantor

I don’t speak german either, did do a google translate once… But it’s not that important.

If I visit a NAIM dealer and ask for their advice, then they are going to want to sell me new gear ofcourse. Unfortunately my pockets aren’t deep enough to buy new Naim gear. I love buying on the 2nd hand market. That way it’s always possible to change gear without losing a lot of money.

I see some NAP (DR) amps online on the 2nd hand market. Do you suggest a nap DR or wil a for example NAP 200 also suffice for my possible high current demanding speakers?

Also, can you explain me the difference between NAP xxx and NAP xxx DR?

Other forum members here don’t think a stronger power amp will fix my problem…

Extra: Yesterday I listened a little, I do think the rubber pads (instead of soundcare superspikes) improve the bass of the speakers. I notice “dryer” bass. But bass overall is still strong. It’s mostly the deepest bass response that’s causing the problems.

Kind regards

Will

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DR - Discrete Regulator. An improved way Naim use on later products to provide a “better” power supply to different parts/stages of their products. I don’t think it, in and of itself, improved the ability of an amplifier to drive low impedance speakers. Here’s Naim’s white paper on DR:

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Dear Will,

I think I have led to some confusion, and I apologize. Sometimes I think things in my head magically and telepathically; I assume they are translated to the keyboard for a post.

For reference, my Celestion SL6Si speakers have a nominal impedance of 8 ohms though when producing low end (bottom end, we bass players like to say), they drop to 3.9-ohm impedance. Hence the requirement for an impedance versus frequency response curve.

My NAIT XS2 has the ability to source 70 watts into 8 ohms and 100 watts per channel into 4 ohms.

I am not going to lose any sleep of the 0.1-ohm difference, which might be out of the ability of the NAIT XS2.

Thus when it comes to your speakers being a nominal 4 ohms, the amplifier is already in doing its best to supply power to such a low impedance. I dare say that your frequency vs. impedance response curve would dip well below the stated 4 ohms of the amplifier’s ability and, thus, the requirement for an amplifier that can deliver into the 2-ohm region. These are all my suppositions based on experience and not the specifications and facts of the engineers that design your particular speakers. Though, in truth, I think you see where I am going.

A Super Nait is not specified below 2 ohms and is just a bigger version of the XS, though there may be a justified argument for a better input section.

You could go with a NAP 250, though I like the changeover point with the DR systems, not just for the discreet regulator but the change in technology for the NA009 power transistor. No crossover distortion, faster response on the power supply regulation, and the latest technology as in the NA009.

This amplifier, as well as the NAP 250 and further down DR Range, are able to supply power in watts rated for your speaker down to a 2-ohm speaker load for some time.

It is upon this basis that I timidly suggest a 250DR with no moving parts, such as the fan in the 300DR. Mechanical components have a shorter lifespan than solid state if the latter is looked after and not over-driven.

I think you will find the SN series more of the same, just louder; a NAP series would be more capable of those low impedances. If you are able to dig up an impedance graph versus frequency, it will shed more light on the situation that I “feel” you have.

Though going by the specifications we have at hand, on paper, it would look like the NAIT XS would be more than capable of driving your speakers. This is just my gut feeling.

Warm regards,

Mitch.

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@gthack: interesting read! I’ll dive into it when I have some spare time.
@Gigantor: unfortunately there’s not much to find on visonik concept 7’s. I did find a measurement on visonik concept 5’s though.
It’s in Russian but you can translate it, or just check the curves. You need to scroll down to the bottom.
The concept 5’s are apparently not known to drop below 4ohm. The nominal impedance is 4.2 and the curve doens’t go below.

Ah well, we’ll see were it ends. Again: yesterday evening I thought things got better without the soundcare spikes. Maybe i go for an nap 250 DR, maybe I stick with my XS1 for a while, I truly think it sounds amazing anyhow, maybe I put my Kef’s back for a while (wife likes the kefs more - what does she know!! haha). Maybe I’ll try another brand one day, maybe I sell everything and start over. Maybe a bus hits me tomorrow and I’ll be dead??? Who knows! Let’s hope for the best though. Maybe I’ll win the lottery tomorrow? Then I can go for the nap DR 250

But today, no, I don’t want to give that amount to a power amp.

Kind regards