New vinyl defects - how much is too much?

Music Room
21

Haha, I did the same in 1985. CDs were so much clearer and no crackles etc. However I recently heard turntables in friends houses and wanted to get back in to it. I want to immerse myself in the ritualistic side of using discs, be they vinyl or plastic.

I’m very tolerant of noise on a record. Some of my old records (I kept those which I had) are very crackly despite a couple of runs through my RCM. It’s ok because I know what they’ve been through. Same goes for used records which I buy.

However, when I buy a new record, I expect a much higher degree of quality. Much less noise. It’s all a bit hit and miss. A bit frustrating. I know I have to adjust my expectations, and the process of finding my own level of tolerance is painful. I’ll get there. When a record is right there’s no beating it.

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22

Graeme, as with many aspects of life, it is management of expectations that is key here.

Whatever the merits (or not) of compact disc sound quality, it is fair to say that before CD mass-market formats (vinyl/cassette/8-track/AM radio etc) were inherently noisy. I am not including R2R @38cm/sec, and FM tuners fed by a Galaxie aerial here because these were hardly mass-market items.

We were, therefore, effectively conditioned to expect, and to live with, sonic imperfections unless they rendered the particular medium unplayable or unlistenable.

If noise was present on a CD, it was likely because the artist/producer wanted it there. Latterly, we have had the rise of streaming in its various iterations ; again, an essentially “silent” medium.

Last year I invested fairly heavily in my Sondek and bought an external phono stage to replace the boards in my 52 and, latterly, a very nice Clearaudio RCM. Since then, I have bought the new Zappa box-set “because Zappa”, but have mostly bought CDs and streamed Spotify.

I do however, have in the region of 2000 discs bought, acquired or inherited over the years, and have little desire to add to that number.

Call me a tightwad, but I look askance at the prices being asked for vinyl today, whether new or secondhand. (I say this being fully aware that LPs are still relatively cheaper than when I was buying them as a not particularly spotty teenager).

Having said all the above, if you are finding a disproportionate amount of vinyl purchases warped, holes not centred properly, then that is a different matter entirely. The expectation should be that you should always least be able to play the records!

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23

A friend of mine who is collecting vinyl since more than 20 years has seen a very noticeable increase in warping and bad pressing. He said to me that he sends about 50% of LP’s back nowadays.

For me this is definitely a confirmation it was good getting out of vinyl a few years ago :slight_smile:

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24

That is exactly right and my expectations were way off. I’m learning what is acceptable and what isn’t, and adjusting my expectations of the medium accordingly. I’m ok with a few clicks or a bit of crackle here and there, and small warps are ok too. But I seem to be finding some real duffers, where the noise of the defect is overpowering the music. Those records have gone back.

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25

I’m only returning about 10%, so I guess not too bad then.

26

I bought so much classical vinyl in the early days of CD when the mantra was “this stuff will never be re-issued” Really? A lot of these were British pressings and often looked down on as the Dutch were simply better.
Playing some of these LPs now on a heavily upgraded LP12 there can be a totally silent side from start to finish-sometimes! That can be a violin and piano sonata: a challange for LPs.
I can live with a bit of ticking, the odd short scratch, a little warping. What gets to me is the pressing hash, bad enough when its continuous, worse when its cyclical on each revolution.
Saying all the above I STILL like this way of listening to music.
Good housekeeping comes to mind.

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27

I think the simple answer really is its subjective. The starting point as a benchmark reference in my view is that records can and are manufactured perfectly silent and warp free, beyond that how much “noise” or warp does one tolerate before it impinges on the enjoyment of the music. As consumers, to maintain quality we have to demand it and not accept anything that falls short, so dont be afraid to return anything that’s not satisfactory to you.
I have been quite intolerant of unsatisfactory pressings since an early age, as such most of my record collection pressing wise is pretty good

As someone earlier mentioned a good wet/dry vaccuum RCM is invaluable, I used to be a bit sceptical, now I wouldnt be without mine, and definitely the Karousel bearing for your LP12, it’s amazing how much “noise” that previously one might have thought was attributed to the vinyl itself vanishes.
:heart:

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28

That’s non fill I think your describing, agreed it drives me absolutely bonkers. The worst recently was Paul Wellers True Meanings first press, I went through about 4 copies from different sources before throwing in the towel and buying the beer mat
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29

I was advised prior to getting my record player that a RCM should be considered part of the package, so I got one.

My LP12 is new and came with Karousel, Kore, Trampolin 2 and other bits, but I think they are the foundation. Unfortunately for me I cannot appreciate how good the Karousel is because I never had anything else.

I have decided after reading the comments above and chatting to a few friends, that I have a small tolerance for defects, and anything that doesn’t meet my standards goes back. If necessary I will just have the cd instead. I don’t want a load of duff records.

This is exactly right!

30

Totally agree!
Incidentally as you may be aware, I’m a big lover of Jamaican music, ironically for someone who also loves vinyl, a genre where records are notoriously and frustratingly badly pressed, found that this was an area of record buying that’s been greatly improved by the advent of CD & Digital audio.
I could write chapter and verse on that, but I’ll refrain and not go off on one :joy:
:heart:

31

Today, a new phrase entered my vocabulary; naimly “non fill”. Know doubt Dreadatthecontrols you could explain its meaning in greater detail. At an educated guess its when the top and bottom part of thr press do not separate as one meaning the disc come out slighly lop-sided?
Its all back to the level of care in making the product. Anything from LPs to tins of beans.

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32

That’s a very interesting question. I have tried a lot to avoid the crackles and all the other faults on the vinyl. And you are right that it must be a matter of production quality. Some vinyls have got less faults than others. I am using a Clearaudio Double Matrix Professional Sonic to clean my vinyls - new and old. But also with this machine it is not even possible to avoid crackles and other not wanted sounds, although it is better than my old Okki Nokki.

33

I stopped buying new vinyl along time ago due to regularity of returning records and in some cases three times for the same album. Decided to just buy cd.

34

Agreed Douglas. That whooshing surface noise is really annoying and it happens on so many new pressings, but is very rare on my older records. Go figure!
On the subject of warped records, it’s a very serious issue IMHO. Even if it doesn’t wow or jump and you don’t think it’s audible, just thinking about the pure physics as I watch my arm bobbing up and down, the tracking force is just 1.75g; it’s barely touching the record anyway, but then it gets ‘hump-backed bridged’ and the variation in tracking force as the cartridge is ramped up the hill and then dropped in near free fall to crash again at the bottom of the hill once every 2 seconds has surely got to affect what you’re hearing?
I’ve virtually stopped buying recent releases. I’d rather take my chances with used originals from Discogs or real shops. Ironic that 70’s and 80’s Vinyl can be barely millimetres thick, but is almost never warped or hash noisy. Scratched ? Sure, of course. Groove damage? Sometimes, but generally less than you might think IME.

35

I have some LPs that are very thin, yet play well. I have LPs that don’t look too good yet are very quiet.

“180g, heavyweight vinyl” is no guarantee of good sound quality.

As I have said above, and I don’t seem to be alone here, I will not, unless in certain circumstances, pay inflated prices for music I can get on cd, often pre-owned, much cheaper.

A RCM can make a substantial improvement, but is not a universal panacea.

Sometimes I feel like I have gone back 30 years in time, but this time vinyl is the expensive format and CD is the cheap format.

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36

We also must consider the “assumed customer expectations” now vs 30-40 years ago. The equipment has revealed flaws, just look at the threads on pre amp discussion from a 202, 282, 272, 252, 552 hierarchy. As you go up the ladder, the source quality Is revealed. I think we have come to expect more given the advances in equipment, and the record industry needs to acknowledge that. Take a look at at the auto industry. The customer expectation for cars now is power windows, back up camera, remote door locks, etc….years ago those were options, that are now standard.

Scott

37

Unless there are obvious scuffs or scratches its not possible tell the condition of an LP by just looking at it until you play it. Similarly you only know the degree of warp by watching it rotate on a TT. Then there is the almost silent disc which on the next play becomes noisy. RCMs can do an excellent job but they will never make a ticky disc totally silent.
BUT, we still love the media for all its potential faults.
I can’t recall when I sent a CD back. One of its strengths especially for the manufacturer and retailer.

38

Back in the days when I used to buy my hi-fi equipment based on magazine reviews and my judgement, i.e. without consulting a dealer, my TT system consisted of a Thorens 125, SME 3009 and an ADC25. The ADC was a MM with three interchangable styli consisting of an L shaped shoe. From memory this had a circular diamond and the choice of two eliptical. It was imported from the USA by KEF in Maidstone.
This was the era of minimal tracking weights and very low mass arms. With this set up and a badly warped disc the arm could not follow the switchback movement and would loose contact with the surface of the disc only to meet it on the next revolution.

39

As I’ve said previously in this thread, I am extremely intolerant of poor quality vinyl. I agree with many of the comments from others. Generally, if it’s noisy I’ll buy the CD instead, which is usually so much more reliable as well as being cheaper. However, I did have to return a CD just last week. It was a double, where the first disc would rip OK, but the second reported three errors.

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40

Quite simply it’s where the molten vinyl doesn’t flow properly in the press, the groove doesnt form properly. You hear that horrid ripping or sssssh sound, usually in one channel and most often at the outer or inner playing surfaces

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