I had no hifi during the 90s but came back to the fold come this century. Hifi or no-hifi, my suggestions and comments of how to resolve poor wifi are still sound. Running some lan cables, even partially, can sometimes help people with problematic wifi. Take the advice or not… I’m only trying to help.
My comment was more tongue in cheek……Sorry to have failed in my bad humour attempt.
Apologies… stressful day.
No problem. Have a good end of the day ![]()
As the signal goes into the DAC the timing errors are already embedded in the digital data being converted to analog. Even if you throw away the clock and redo it right before handing over the data to the DAC, the damage is already done and fixing it adds both complexity and uncertainty, hence the difference in sound signature.
Deleted, please remove.
All Ethernet audiophile switches have 2 parts well upgraded vs a cheap common switch: the power supply and the clock.
Better power supply = less noise = more details, more natural sound and bigger soundstage.
Better clock = better timing, fluidity, easy going and effortless sound.
In the professional domain, we just don’t need those upgrades. The right data is all we need.
Conclusion: Network knowledge in the professional IT world has quite nothing in common with the audio domain.
What causes these timing errors?
Jitter.
This thread is going pretty much as I expected, lol!
I think we can agree that most modern DACs do a pretty good job of controlling the measurable things (jitter and noise), to the point that in most cases any remaining artefacts are below the threshold of human hearing. I think we also agree that getting the “raw” data to the DAC is not a problem, so a reliable Wi-Fi can do this as well as a wired set-up.
So, whatever is going on that makes the same raw data sound different in the same set-up (e.g. by introducing a boutique device or whatever in the data connection) is either a figment of the imagination, or that device is doing something that can’t be measured but can be heard. Hardly an earth-shattering statement I know.
Perhaps a different approach is to ask what these things (presumably jitter and noise) sound like, so we know if we have them.
For example, I can turn the volume up to very high levels when no music is playing and hear absolutely nothing, so presumably whatever noise is there is below the threshold of my hearing and not impacting my listening enjoyment. I’m not sure what jitter sounds like, but things stop and start crisply, and my feet keep tapping at the same rhythm; does this mean that jitter is under control too? Does this mean my system is optimised from a data connection perspective?
Agreed- if I was to attempt to write a consensus statement it would read along the lines that you have written. ![]()
Jitter is/are timing errors. Jitter causes frequency anomalies….known as phase noise. So the question is, what causes jitter/phase noise?
Poor quality clocks (oscillators)
Poor oscillator power supplies
Noise on the power supply feeding the oscillators
EMI/RFI affecting the oscillators
Vibration of the oscillator crystal
Temperature fluctuations
I think we can also agree not all network transports sound the same.
Just to mention; digital noise is generally speaking orders of magnitude higher in frequency than the audible spectrum, so its not noise that you can hear directly….its noise that interferes with digital processing throughout the system and is ‘heard’ as a lack of quality. In other words, you don’t hear it while its there, but you very clearly hear when its gone by virtue of the music sounding much better.
Let me give you an example:
With noise your music sounds slightly harsh; without it sounds a good deal better. Instead of harshness you now hear the music and the early reflections from the venue, which have low amplitude and subtly different timing. With the noise present, your ears are unable to differentiate (resolve) direct from indirect sounds. The indirect sounds are still there, but unresolved from the direct, adding their energy to the direct sound, making it sound slightly harsh.
With the noise removed, the music is often described as sounding more detailed, with greater soundstage. The music hasn’t actually changed…the bits are still the same. What has changed is its presentation, with subtle differences easier to detect and differentiate
Absolutely, it simply sucks the life out of music.
I’ve just managed to get my Roon playback far more stable after setting up a TP link router and Draytek vigor and dedicating a channel to music, so this thread piqued my interest. To my ears there is a definite improvement in sound quality so I’m curious about trying a few more of the tips mentioned. @Blackmorec - really interesting insights, how far away from your streamer do you locate your extender, does it matter? Thanks.
One of the best upgrades i’ve done to my network is to change my ISP router for a higher quality third party one. I also swapped out the cheap wall-wart supply that came with it for a much higher quality third party supply. Everything has far improved, whether either using the WiFi or Ethernet connections. Unshielded Ethernet cables too also brought a more pleasant, less noisy, overall listen.
Perhaps I can add some confusion here ![]()
If you have a local music-server (Roon or other) that runs windows or macos (dont know about linux) then connect it via wifi to the network and use it as bridge.
Connect your streamer with wire (or optical) to the server. Lookup ”internet sharing” for your OS. The tricky part is that you also want to share the content on your server to the streamer preferrably without it taking an extra trip out via wifi. Either you love using google or just hire someone.
I currently dont use either wifi or fancy switches. I use a cheap trendnet switch connected via ethernet and have my music server connected to it. Then I added a Finisar SFP. Then a bit of optical cable. And the streamer via Sonores opticalModule Deluxe. So the last leg to the streamer use optical as filter for electronic nuisance. Note that optical has a zillion choices and for optimal hifi I just bought the Sonore solution incl. the Finisar to save myself from having to learn it.
Out of curiosity - has anyone here tried the new QED Reference Cat 8.1 Ethernet cable?
Seems very reasonably priced.
Patchy Wi-Fi in house on bt smart hub 2 with fibre to the premises and no signal reaching Tesla charge point and car outside meant an upgrade was in sorely needed.
Nd5 xs2 and Apple TV in listening room were on Wi-Fi and suffering from intermittent buffering and drop out and fuzzy picture issues.
Apple TV speed test showed jitter over 1ms and slow ping time with download at sub 50% optimal mbps via Wi-Fi.
First step was replacing smarthub2 with tplink x55 mesh system 1 at modem and 1 upstairs closest to Tesla outside and 1 in music room.
Satisfied that tesla was now getting Wi-Fi I turned my attention to the music room for further upgrades.
Music room tplink x55 connected via cat7 (Audioquest custom from Futureshop) to NETGEAR 108 and from 108 via cat7s to nd5 xs2 and Apple TV.
Result: no more drop outs or buffering. Apple TV speed test shows 100% optimal mbps and reduced jitter to sub .5ms and ping also reduced.
I think the improved download speed is due to the tplink x55 dedicated backhaul.
Medium term aim is to connect each x55 with Ethernet backhaul once house remodel is underway to creat a hybrid system.
I feel sound quality has improved. Definitely no fuzzy pictures or buffering!