Amen!
But in all seriousness, it really is about the pecking order, isn’t it?
In joy your Music, The Why!
PS. Nicely spoken, Dunc.
Humans, interesting creatures!
With a statement like that, there might be a top job for you in the White House.
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Feeling_zen,…
…But,.I agree with Hungryhalibut,.see below.
And I have not yet in my long hifi-life,.met on a “science-man” whose music-system or installation sounds better than mine.
This includes the Swedish “Guru” Ingvar Öhman,.whom I have written earlier about.
But Ingvar has a theoretical and scientific knowledge,.that is at the top in Sweden…Definitely.
So I understand exactly,.what Hungryhalibut want to say with what he writes.
/Peder🙂
I had the reverse of this recently. I am far from knowledgeable (in fact I would go so far as to say a berk) on HiFi but do have music on in the house all day and I know what I like. Having read a lot of posts on here about SL I/C’s I thought how can one cable change the sound that much ? One came up on the bay recently so I thought I would give it a go and if my thoughts were confirmed and it did sound no better I would simply sell it on. I have had it a few days now and I am amazed at the difference to the point I took it off and put my old grey/lavender IC back to make sure I was not dreaming. Nope, I was not. My preconceived “this will not change” was blown out the water.
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I think before testing another cable you should unplug and replug all the cables currently used, listen to the current cables. Then remove and plug in new cables being tried, revert to orginal cable playing same track for each trial. For subsequent trials you only need to play the track once with each cable.
Why the extra work of the initial step? Well, I have always unplugged and replugged after being amazed at the unexpected improvement when I plugged in an inferior cable to test it in a system prior to selling it. I soon worked out it was because of dirty contacts and the cleaning action of unplugging and replacing mitigates against this.
I do wonder if sometimes some improvements are not due to different cables but to cleaner contacts or other system maintenance/cleaning.
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I feel you 100%, I love my music and this hobby of ours but speaker wire and interconnects costing 50% of some the Black Boxes incorporated in one’s system!
With that being said, I recently shared a similar experience which you encountered concerning spacing and isolation as it relates to Naim’s Fraim.
Mind you, I bought Fraim/FraimLite because of its ability to implement additional shelves and it’s simplistic looks. Anyhow, 3 years later, I just implemented a corian shelf beneath my CD player. Low and behold, Naim’s infamous Hum reduced nearly 75%. If that wasn’t enough, I recently added 2 more shelves, which increased my count from a seven tier to a nine tier 2 stack Fraimlite racking system. I’m no scientist, although I did minor in chemistry, but I think the additional shelving increased the spacing and isolation of my system. Now, it’s difficult to tell if my system is powered on! And my system incorporates three Nap 250 plus…
I guess DB said it best:
“The extra space does improve presentation IMO. {One of those things people never believe until they hear it for themselves}. I’ve counted as well spent value for improved SQ the higher levels and spacers I purchased for my system.”
But when it’s all said and done, it really is personal satisfaction!
Enjoy your Music!
PS. I must google a new word Berk!
Thanks biddler66.
PS. British Slang!
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“Berk” is an abbreviation of the phrase Berkeley Hunt, being adopted in Cockney rhyming slang.
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I do not suffer from the placebo effect because I always get my better half to listen without initially saying whether she is hearing A or B. The result is that up to now we have heard 100% the same or no difference in SQ.
It got to the point where our dealer was setting up the correct phase/polarity and he didn‘t tell us which way round he had it. This was on a Linn system so the difference was more subtle than on a Naim system. We both preferred the same ”setting”.
We experimented with an Innuos Zenith 3 and replaced a regular Ethernet cable with a Vodka thinking we could optimize the KDSM/active Akubariks. No difference!
We applied sound optimization: massive difference!
Now, with a Naim system, where the signal is analogue further up the chain towards the source, we both noticed major differences when we added a PS, when we changed the server, when we fitted SL speaker cables, when we got a Fraim, when we …
The problem is that I would not have been satisfied until we had an Innuos Statement feeding an ND555 with two 555 PSs and/or a Chord Dave or TT2 with MScaler into a 552/500 and probably some speakers for fifty grand on top.
But we wanted fewer boxes, not more (do they have to be black?) 
and we hadn‘t the aesthetic space for a hifi rack…
Well, in summary, I do believe that almost every tweak to a Naim system brings a noticeable improvement and there is no placebo if you take time to home demo, preferably not alone. There is, however, great satisfaction from most tweaks. This is relatively addictive and a habit which is fueled even more by perusing this forum
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Yes and just the thought of owning a better piece of kit once you have it can somehow make it sound better… ha ha
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I guess if you want to hear a difference when trying something new in your system, chances are your brain will persuade you that you can. I think good long home demos can counter this because you can acclimatise yourself to what is ‘new’ and then you are in a better position to decide whether the difference you hear is actually better. I’ve also found a good habit is to re-evaluate your assessment once the new component has been taken out of the system and you return to listening to the system as it was. If you can’t hear a difference then the new component is not for you.
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The electrons don’t know how expensive a cable is - Blue Jeans Cables,
I think the placebo effect is very real. At a HiFi show many punters and esteemed reviewers were knocked out by the clarity of the bright orange speaker cable Quad we’re using. Only to discover, it was mains wire from B&Q’s gardening centre. The guy doing the demo had forgotten to pack the usual speaker wires in the van so they’d grabbed whatever they could.
That said I like a nice set of well made leads.
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Core and big focals for hungryhalibut:)
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This issue particularly in relation to cables almost destroyed another hifi forum. Of course the only conclusion was no conclusion!
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It’s been a long time before I’ve heard someone comes up with solid, reliable proof of the placebo effect, but hang on - maybe the wires are the real ‘upgrade’?
Arguing that the Placebo effect is real is equivalent to arguing that gravity is real.
Numerous trials have demonstrated that it is and moreover that even when the blinding is removed the effect persists.
I think it simply does not matter, I know what I hear. There are those that always feel the need to be the XX police… Those folks will say everything sounds the same, amps, dac’s turntables, all digital, all cables are BS, all except except speakers.
I have a couple of Sonos zones: Outside, Guest Room, etc… So once in a while I’ll visit the Sonos Forums. There’s one fellow who sold off this Harbeth 30’s for a pair one Sonos One’s and a Sonos sub who says it sounds as good as his older kit of Marantz SACD player and Amp… AHHH Kool Aide
I had no idea about that. Very sad to hear. Always enjoyed his posts.
R.I.P. Frank.
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I added some Medium height legs to my fraim in place of standard and was pretty happy before turning the system back on as it made cable dressing much easier! I was not expecting much of an uplift in sound quality, more a subtle improvement if I was lucky. The difference was incredible, I would liken the difference to when I changed from a NAP200 to a NAP300 DR. The separation of instruments went to another level, the instruments are much more firmly placed within the sound stage, bass is improved and also the general clarify of the music. Its like a thick sheet has been taken off the speakers.
I was expecting little, I got a lot more than I bargained for! I asked my partner to listen, she could also tell there was a large improvement. For her the biggest change to the system she has heard. I added nothing other than a few inches between boxes.
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I agree too mostly. It was less what was said and more how it was said.
As for the placebo effect, I think anyone who thinks they are immune or has better ears than this is kidding themselves. This is in fact why A/B tests are not so good in my opinion. We both hear a bit of what we want (subconsciously or otherwise) and also conflate other variables with the change that was made which may be incorrect. A good example is any change that entailed powering off the amps. They do sound noticeably different after a power cycle (certainly my 250 does). We often try and listen for the effect of one variable change ignoring the reality that multiple variables changed.
The placebo effect wears off after a longer period which is why I think making a change and absorbing it over a longer period of time (days) and then switching back can be more revealing than A/B. I fully admit to hearing the benefits a change has more than the shortfalls for the first few days.
Anyone who claims to be immune to the placebo effect is doomed to always succumb to it in my opinion.
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If you are concerned the solution is simple do not buy any new gear. Try instead to find other ways to trigger the placebo effect, as others have said it actually does work.
Claus