Hi @anon42789223, now that I’ve had a good chance to compare the two I am coming down on the side of playing via the Naim app. I tried the SSD on the core with the core connected via power line and also via WiFi.
I did not perceive any SQ difference between WiFi and power line.
The SQ difference between SSD directly on NDX2 vs core is very minimal if indeed there is a difference at all. I think it is more psychological than anything because I am preconditioned to think the direct link must be better than being streamed even though the source is the same (both SSDs are identical).
My unintentional bias is purely that - if I had assistance to do the comparison and I was able to do a completely blind test I am confident that I couldn’t tell the difference.
I also compared tidal on the Naim app with Tidal masters on the core with the core doing the first unfold - again I couldn’t pick a consistent winner presumably because the masters are the same and only the bit depth is different in most cases.
My conclusion is that my set up is so good via the Naim app that I don’t need anything else. my Quobuz trial has ended but I will stick with tidal, SSD bbc radio 2 and 4 and Naim app.
There are many excellent features on Roon - after letting the radio take over after an album finishes I found the choices were excellent.
Very interesting, so your finding is not the same as others perceive here, maybe it is just a pre-perception and it is just theoretical that power line introduces too much interference?
I would say that it depends on the condition/layout of mains in each individual’s house. During a lot of home improvement activity a couple of years ago, I done a complete re-wire with new consumer unit and earth bonding point. I have not run a separate circuit for my Hi-Fi though.
Also, my house is relatively small and detached with a decent distance to neighbours on either side. My Sky broadband is also good because the cabinet is only 200 metres down the road and the exchange just another 100 metres.
I suspect that another consideration is that the NDX2 and SN2 are very high quality without tipping over into high end with the associated increased sensitivity.
I don’t class myself as an expert or as having excellent hearing but I do like to think I am fairly discerning. I recognise the position I have achieved with my set up and am satisfied that I have reached the point whereby I don’t need to upgrade - I really am at the point where the law of diminishing returns applies.
The final point is that I am very honest to myself and if I can’t detect a difference I immediately admit it. Please, nobody interpret this as me accusing others of dishonesty or pretence, it is purely my view of myself.
I can give you a few facts. At home I have high speed connection via the fiber. The WiFi network is done via a Netgear Orbi mesh as configured as Access Point (AP), the WiFi network of the box being phased out. Naim is connected to WiFi by Ethernet Cable to one of the Orbi satellites, which is just close to it. The connection is perfect. There is no drop whatsoever. In your case, the choice of the Orbi mesh would depend on the size of your house. What I said depends on the speed of your internet connection, and is not valid, I guess, without a fibered connection.
It is certainly not theoretical. Several years back I was involved with Ofcom on the matter… with their advanced equipment, I could see exactly the interference it was causing and the consequential impact to other services like broadband… and this was over a distance of 300 metres ! Though that particular powerline chipset I believe is now withdrawn, and some of the later ones are not as polluting,
As I say you don’t need advanced equipment to detect it however… if you can’t hear it on your Hi-Fi, you are fortunate, on many high end systems you certainly can hear the effect (like dozens of noisy SMPS near your Hi-Fi) … and with turntables and tuners it can be quite audible.
From a home network perspective Naim don’t recommend their use with their network products such as streamers, as their products are specifically designed for Ethernet or Wifi.
However if you are concerned about the field strength it produces, especially where you sleep, take an AM radio such as a SW radio… off tune it… place it near your bed, or bed side lamp… if there is only a low level buzz, then perhaps fine, if there is a loud rasping buzz, I personally would be concerned about sleeping in that over an extended period of time. Though it has to be said that the health risks of long term exposure of wide bandwidth low power electro magnetic radiation are still being evaluated, rather than confirmed…
Thanks Simon, that makes sense, however, it is interesting that in some situations there is no SQ difference regardless whether wifi or powerlines is used (eg per Bjm).
Well we don’t all hear things the same way… and I guess if your equipment is not particularly sensitive or optimally setup, or you have high levels of RFI already then you might not notice a load of extra RF… but either way Naim have previously stated try and avoid using them if possible if you have any sort of difficulty, as Powerlines provide a bespoke bridging type function and don’t offer Ethernet or Wifi connectivity which the Naim devices are designed for.
But yes if everything works fine, and there are no side effects in your house with broadband or radio for example, you are not too demanding of your home network and for your audio equipment you notice no artefacts or aberrations, and you are comfortable with the exposure to the wide bandwidth low level electro magnetic radiation they produce in your house then use them, the ones on the market are currently legal for use in domestic situations after all.
This is an interesting discussion, and I have a question for those doing the tests, especially @Bjm: when you swapped your connections from power line to wifi, did you also switch off / remove all the power line devices? If not, isn’t the RF still being carried on the mains, and thus potentially providing the same noise profile to the Naim boxes? My question is whether we are testing the comparative Ethernet connections, or we are testing the two RF environments… thanks!
Correct… and remember it’s not just carried in the wires… it radiates from the wires into your living space… it was Hertz who discovered that back in the 19th century. That is why elsewhere when we conduct high frequency electrical signals we use balanced lines (like telephone and Ethernet) or use unbalanced shielded cable like coax. Typically when we don’t do that we call the conductor an antenna or earth/ground plane.
Hi @alan33, yes indeed, my testing is not complete, not at all scientific and no I didn’t remove the power lines from the system. Neither did I connect the WiFi aerials to my NDX2. I only swapped the laptop from Ethernet connection to wireless I am purely sharing my experiences of what I have done to check SQ within the parameters of what I am prepared to change in my own household. I will always have the power lines for my Sky Q system so there was no point me seeing if there was a smidgen of improvement available with a method that I would not use.
All of your points are correct and to do the comparisons properly, I would need to carry out the steps that you mention.
For me, my system sounds so good and I enjoy it so much that I do not feel the need to eke out any more performance. I am seeking ease of use without causing harm to the SQ.
I challenge anyone to be able to be get a night and day improvement with my system even with running dedicated mains and Ethernet. That level of change does not exist without changing cables, adding PSUs etc. remember, I said night and day differences.
Hmmm, my second controversial statement of today! I trust that you will all appreciate I know my limitations and am not trying to belittle anyone else’s integrity.- these are purely my opinions about myself.
I also had issues in running an Ethernet cable so tried powerline adaptors. They never sounded quite right so I tried the wifi from the router and there was a marked improvement in quality. I was having wifi signal issues in some parts of the house so bought a BT Whole Home Mesh system and it works perfectly. One day I will run a temporary cable to see if it is better than the WiFi, but at the moment I am happy with it using Tidal, UPnP from a Synology drive and Internet Radio
What Naim streamer (or other gear) are you using? I think it’s fair to say that consumer networking gear has improved considerably over the past year or two. Also the new Naim streamers seem to be pretty good with WiFi, if my Atom is anything to go by, compared to the earlier models. This forum used to be plagued by posts from people who were unable to get their streamers to work reliably, if at all, over WiFi, but it’s good to see that the technology is improving.
My transition to Naim coincided with a switch to Mesh WiFi. I’d always used wired for music but a lack of Ethernet ports on the new gear meant I had to try wireless initially. I’ve been thus far so happy with wireless performance that I’ve still not been inclined to investigate wired options. Technology definitely seems to be getting better in this regard. Although not universally - my brand new OLED TV can’t stream over WiFi usably at all, it’s pathetic.
This post encouraged me to ditch my BT powerline plugs and go wireless using latest BT hub and mesh discs. The power plugs did require a re-boot every week or so after falling over, however, when they worked they were lightening quick to deliver my NAS library to my Naim Uniti Star, whereas my Wi-Fi it takes about 5 seconds to populate either my Star or Naim App. Cant recall hearing a audible difference between the 2 methods. There is lots of competing devices for the Wi-Fi and assume this is the problem? Will ultimatley aim to hardwire when planning permission comes through for a rear and side extension.