I have an odd issue where the rear channels stand out too much for my taste, if you’re sat in either the left or right seat it sounds like the majority of the sound is coming from the nearest rear speaker. Is there a way I can address this in Dirac calibration to widen the rear sound-stage somehow? Alternatively, would switching to bipole (not dipole) speakers like the Aria SR900 be a better solution for this than than monopole bookshelf speakers?
For context, in my 5.1.2 setup I used to have B&W M1 speakers on stands behind the couch as surround speakers which worked pretty well - it’s exactly what they are designed for but the setup was unbalanced with the front and center speakers being from the much the much larger B&W 700 series. I have swapped out the M1s for the B&W 607 bookshelf speakers to better match the B&S 706 fronts and put them on tall custom designed stands to get the right height. The AV Receiver I am using the AVR850 which I calibrate with Dirac Live. The sound is now nicely balanced all round in terms of in-room frequency response and ‘punch’ so I am happy with the upgrade but the sound from the rear speakers has become much more directional.
Layout:
I’ve tried moving the speakers out along the wall and back in as well as toeing in and out, currently orientated per the Dolby recommendation below for 5.1.2.
They can’t go back any further, I’ve pulled the sofa forward about as far as I would like it but I plenty of room to move the rear speakers out along the wall:
I noticed in the AV Receiver setup (AV850) there is a setting to widen the front sound-stage, I was almost wondering if there is something like that I can get it to do in calibration e.g. perhaps re-run the calibration setup with additional microphone measurement positions wider apart at the rear corners of the sofa. The original calibration was run around the main listening position and if you sit by yourself right in the middle it’s fine but when there is two of you sat side-by-side you just hear most of the soundtrack from whichever rear speaker you are nearest. Oddly I didn’t notice this with the smaller satellite speakers on an earlier calibration, presumably the M1s just had less ‘presence’. I could just turn the volume of the rear channels down a bit from what the Dirac calibration results suggests but it feels like the solution is to create a more diffuse sound somehow from the rear channels.
That’s why I gave up years ago trying to make surround sound work. In typical home situations, they just sound distracting and naff. Unless it’s a purpose made/used room where rears are a long equal distance from everyone’s ears, my view is you’ll faff around hoping they’ll work and then convince yourself it was worth the effort, probably just ditching them at some later point.
I like high quality multi-channel from the front with a sub only.
Sorry, of not much use to you, but your issue rings a bell (or ear).
Moving them further to the sides should help and would also give you an idea of how the wall mounts you are considering might function. I currently use some wall mounted monitor audio silver surrounds in a similar configuration but they are roughly 75cm from the sofa ends. Does the av850 use multiple measurement sweeps during set up? I measured from the three seating positions on our sofa, and a couple of other seats, rather than a single hot position when calibrating.
It does, I’ve just been having a look into it and one thing I noticed is it has a ‘wide imaging’ and a ‘focused imaging’ option in the calibration setup I can try. As there are only two listening positions I picked the suggested ‘focused imaging’ option in Dirac as it infers the ‘wide imaging’ option is for multiple seating positions and rows of seating.
I’ll try moving them out a few inches and keep them aimed at or just behind the listening position; I did try them moved right out into the corners but then no sound seemed to come from behind the listening position to the rear sound effects just sort of disappeared which is why I brought them in.
I will move the speakers out and re-run the calibration in the ‘wide imaging setting’. I’ve also just ordered some big cushions for the sofa that I hope should move the listening position forward slightly without pulling the sofa any further out.
If that doesn’t work then full nuclear option might be trading in the rear bookshelf speakers and stands for wall-mounted dipole speakers like the Monitor Audio ones.
Yeah the thought had occurred to me but I am quite invested in making it work having cut holes in the ceiling to install height channels and chased cables into the walls for the rear channels. It seems almost there if I can just get a more diffuse sound from the rear channels I’ll be happy with it being as good as I’m going to get it in a modest size 1950s bungalow living room.
Could do but out of spare power amp channels on the AVR850, surround channels are re-assigned to power height speakers. I don’t know if I can re-assign the FR & FL to RR & RL perhaps and still have FR & FL output to my NAC 272 over RCA.
Thanks, it seemed counter-intuitive to me but widening the space between has helped, looks a bit better I think spaced out too. I’ll play around a bit more with the calibration. Stupid question but if I wanted to widen the sound-stage do I toe the speakers in out or in? I always assumed toeing them out would widen the sound-stage but from what I am reading, pointing them slightly behind the listening position is supposed to help which is basically toeing them in. I suppose with more toe-in there is more of an overlap in the projected sound? E.g. the person in the right seat will hear more from the rear left speaker with it pointed more towards them.
I did have some success when I turned the rears around. In your case, I’d try turning them so they face the corners, let the sound bounce off the walls and give diffused non-directional low background.
I think it might be worthwhile upgrading to the latest license that DiracLive offers you. It should not cost any money.
Your equipment DSP core is identical to the ARCAM AV860 which I use and this year, when I launched DiracLive on the host PC to undertake another suite of measurements for various things, I was offered DiracLive 3. This update to DiracLive 3 introduced 3 (three) rather than the 2 (two) ‘space’ correction options that you currently are describing - might be worth looking into that?
However, if you do choose to update the DiracLive software on the host PC, be warned that it won’t upload your old projects - you are effectively starting again.
Thanks! I’ll lookout for that. I know this is going slightly off topic but regarding sound profiles I don’t mind starting again. The only thing I really touch in Dirac is after it comes up with the default room correction profile is making sure it isn’t boosting any frequencies by more than 4db and lower them to +4db if it is but it can be time consuming, particularly for the height channels because the speakers are small and it wants to EQ the living daylights out of them. Do you know if there is a quick way of keeping the auto-adjustments in check? e.g. limiting them to +/- 4db maximum?
Absolutely, if you upgrade to the v3 of Dirac live, the control options have been much improved. So you can separately control the ‘pairs’ of loudspeakers, and you can switch for corrections between target flatness biases (high and low frequency regions) to point by point tweaks on spot frequencies.
Edit: hi @Chaff , there is also the ‘Target Curtains’ which can be adjusted and restricted in bandwidth which will definitely help with the EQ issue your have described on the smaller loudspeakers.
Dirac Live V3 on a ARCAM AV 800 series platform really is very capable and good value for money IMO.
The other thing is that if you were buying this new now, the various technical elements of Dirac room correction have been split into three separate license elements so Dirac tries to charge you more for each one beyond the basic!
Stay with your current ARCAM AV850, doing so will save you lots of money!
The speakers are right next to your ears on the sofa so you need to move them away into the corners of the room as far as possible or onto the side walls. You need to experiment more.
The beauty is they are on standmounts so should be easy enough.
I have currently a 4:2:2 set up.
2 main speakers left and right, 2 surround speakers left and right, 2 sub woofers and 2 height rear speakers.
Looking at adding 2 more surround speakers and 2 height front speakers. I have the speakers already.
So would be 6:2:4 set up. It’s a compromise as I can’t hear left hand surround speaker too well as it’s a slight L shape room with cut out in living room for a toilet room. I have used Anthem room correction but it doesn’t deal with issue fully.
I don’t use a center speaker, it’s bridged between left and right.
Ultimately, I find the home cinema set up a compromise, but I enjoy my AV and Naim system so much!
I have the Arcam 550 but am not currently using Dirac. I would agree that the speakers are too close to your seating position.
I had the same problem and tried switchable bipole / dipole speakers which didn’t help. Two things did. Firstly better speakers - I have Audiovector and they do a specific ‘on/in’ wall model. Secondly, we moved house and I was able to relocate the speakers to a side wall at a good height. I don’t use rears at all.
This completely removed the problem with no loss of surround ‘wrap’. I then added two Focal in-ceiling speakers (about £280) and now have Atmos which, as it is properly balanced, is really effective - much better than I expected.
Thanks for the tips, I’m redoing the calibrations this evening. Originally Dirac thought my poor little B&W CCM632 ceiling speakers needed to be +10db at some frequencies. I guess if I just close the ‘curtains’ so it’s not applying anything to the EQ below their cut-off frequency at 110hz that should be an easier way of doing it.
