Rob Watts - How we do perceive sound

I’d be interested in reading these papers. Do you have any links.

:small_blue_diamond:Strange statement from someone who says he doesn’t hear the difference between things :roll_eyes:.

/Peder :slightly_smiling_face:

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JV a guy who drives a mini.

Hello Fatcat–Here are some links:

J. R. Stuart and P. G. Craven, “A Hierarchical Approach
for Audio Capture, Archive, and Distribution”
J. Audio Eng. Soc., vol. 67, no. 5, pp. 258–277, (2019 May.).
DOI: https://doi.org/10.17743/jaes.2018.0062

It has been suggested by Kunchur [106–108] that lis
teners can discriminate timing differences of the order of
7μs.
Woszczyk has also provided a convenient review of psy
chophysical and acoustic temporal factors [28].
In light of these psychophysical data, even though one
limit on resolving events will always be the microphone
system bandwidth, it would seem prudent to provide for an
archive that can resolve 3μs. On the other hand, based on
current recordings we have analyzed, and bearing in mind
the response of microphones currently favored by recording
engineers, a sensible target for today’s distribution system
would be of the order of 10μs.

[106] M. N. Kunchur, “Temporal Resolution of Hearing
Probed by Bandwidth Restriction,”Acta Acustica, vol. 94,
pp. 594–603 (2008). https://doi.org/10.1121/1.1547438

[107] M. N. Kunchur, “Audibility of Temporal Smearing and Time Misalignment of Acoustic Signals,”
http://www.ejta.org/en/kunchur1Electronic Journal Technical Acoustics ISSN 1819-2408, http:/www.ejta.org, 17
(2007).

[108] M. N. Kunchur, “Auditory Mechanisms that
Can Resolve ‘Ultrasonic’ Timescales,” presented at
the 128th Convention of the Audio Engineering Society (2010 May), Workshop 6; http://boson.physics.
sc.edu/∼kunchur/papers/Auditory-mechanisms-that-canresolve-ultrasonic-time-scales.pdf.

[28] W. Woszczyk, “Physical and Perceptual Considerations for High-Resolution Audio,” presented at the
115th Convention of the Audio Engineering Society
(2003 Oct.), convention paper 5931. http://www.aes.org/elib/browse.cfm?elib=12372

Enjoy

Steve Sells is an excellent designer. I do not agree with your negative comment about Steve.

Rob is the DAC man for Chord, not the PSUs. I like Chord’s PSUs because of their very low noise and, of course, there is no audible mechanical buzz.

I’m sure Naim is working on an efficient low noise SMPS that doesn’t need to be powered on when not in use or at least thinking about it. Working with a company like Chord could accelerate the development. The pooled expertise could yield some phenomenal products.

Why would folk not want a quiet PSU that is better for the environment and the electric bill?

It would never happen, the reason the two brands sound different is because thats how they perceive how music should sound…they will never agree on a compromise from the Naim end. The uniti Nova etc does have a low noise smps which it uses in standby mode, then reverts to a transformer in use.

It’s the why Chord sounds lean and Naim has meat on the bones. Different approach in ps give different type of sound.

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I was playing music last night on my Chord system and everything sounds so natural and real, which is definitely the sound Chord aims for (if you read its blurb) and one I really enjoy. I thought short of inviting the musicians around I could not achieve a better musical presentation in my home. To put it in context this is in a room I’ve been able to dedicate to music, which helps.

I know folk often talk of the Naim Sound, which seems to imply an edge of the seat experience. Yet when I had a full Naim system, it wasn’t far away from Chord’s accuracy and didn’t seem overly bright or aggressive. It’s downside was PSUs, which didn’t work well for me: despite lots of help trying to eliminate problems. Reading the forum, I see I’m not the only person who experienced the loud buzz. Whereas some folk enjoy tinkering with a system, I found it frustrating as all I wanted to do was listen to Sandy Denny, Sonja Kristina, Annie Haslam, Kate Rusby and … so many great artist and so little time.

Which is why I often think if only Naim would address this aspect its PSU design. If they had I’d still be using Naim, but I guess it doesn’t matter any more as a superb dealer sorted me out. I doubt I’m going to move away from Chord for digital or Linn for vinyl. Though some others may appreciate a PSU sans buzz.

I agree the dream collaboration is unlikely, but I never thought Naim would join with Focal (not so great IMO). I don’t see a Chord Naim liaison as a compromise, but a potential step forward for both companies - when 2 great companies combine you could get the best of both worlds, but I guess you could get a lowest common denominator (it is shame Naim is limited on speaker choice at public demos).

Still Naim, Chord and Linn all make great systems so whichever way you jump then you should be able to enjoy the music.

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I think @anon4489532 was applying a degree of irony in his response.

Steve is indeed an extremely talented designer, which is at least something on which I think we can all agree.

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Indeed so. This worshipping at the temple of Rob Watts, which comes up from time to time, is somewhat mystifying. I’m sure he is a talented designer but he’s also adept at self promotion. Naim have a hugely talented team at Salisbury and produce some great products without shouting it from the rooftops and dressing it up in nonsense about taps, washers or u bends. All this ‘be more like Chord’ is daft - want Chord, buy Chord. Want Naim, buy Naim.

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Hopefully the forum stopped a bit that hysteria on chord dacs. One year ago, in the majority of the threads, chord Hugo was advised again and again.
I hope it will not be replaced soon by the Bartok.

Hmmn i met Mr Watts last year, he was quite interesting up to the point where he started telling us if it did not have a million taps it was not fit for purpose and anything with a normal chip was pretty irrelevant. This may be his point if view, but does not align with how i hear music. I could have bought a Chord, they do sound good…but there was something missing for me, call it emotional connection with the music. But each to their own choices, nice we have choices.

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The thread started with an interesting video which goal was to generate interest and/or curiosity.

Unfortunately, comments sometimes fall down to: “the guy’s bullshiting us with pseudo-science” or “my toy is better than yours”.

Lack of curiosity? …

I believe that even if something is so different we dislike it, it still remains a subject arousing curiosity, and therefore deserves some respect.

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Gazza, I agree.

I have compared an NDX/555 to an NDX/555 Chord Qutest in a system not that many miles away from mine.

When you switch to the Chord dac you can immediately hear why it appeals to many. There is a lot more insight and the NDX sounds congested in comparison. i.e. you can hear what the NDX could improve on.

However the enjoyment of he music for me takes a significant step back with the Chord. I don’t understand why something that is apparently better doesn’t become more enjoyable.

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It’s very similar, I think, to hyper detailed speakers. I’ve heard some speakers that are ostensibly technically better than others, but they pull the music apart so you can hear every little bit, whereas others let it flow as a coherent whole. It’s the hackneyed old saying about good hifi not necessarily making good music.

As has been said above the video is interesting and it’s great to look at things in different ways. It’s when people start to suggest that Chord build Naim’s digital bits and power supplies that to me it gets a bit silly. My power supplies are as silent as the grave and it’s hardly Naim’s fault that people have dodgy mains.

Anyway, I’m not trying to be a Naim sheep here, merely suggesting that Chord designs are not some wonderful audio nirvana. It’s just one way of doing things, equally valid, which some find appealing. It’s certainly not a case of Chord being five years ahead of Naim, more that they are on different paths.

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:+1:

:+1:

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You’re lucky, but not all of us have your good fortune. It’s often raised on the forum and it would great if Naim could make products for us poor lost souls with dodgy mains. As I say I’m beyond redemption as I’ve tapped in to the new church. Perhaps Matthew Hopkins will be giving me a call.

I agree choice is a good thing even if it means I’ll never get kudos for my choice of speakers.

I have huge respect for Rob Watts. He writes very interesting posts in A N Other forum. He always comes across as being a helpful and genuine guy who just loves music and doing what he does.

I’m not a fan of all his creations. I’ve tried just about everything he’s done since Hugo and still have an original Hugo TT. For me it hits the sweet spot. I’m also not a fan of Chord design.

It will be interesting to try Naim’s replacement for the 272 or V1 and whether or not it will be enough to tempt me away from my now almost 5 year old Hugo TT. That’s my justification for saying Rob Watts was at least 5 years ahead.

I also was unlucky enough to suffer from excessive transformer buzz with a SN2. Naim were kind enough to swap it for one that didn’t suffer the same issue. I’ve also experienced this issue with other manufacturers. Don’t automatically assume it’s the mains because, in my experience, the issue can be resolved by exchanging the amp for another one of exactly the same make and model. I guess it’s a case of YMMV. I don’t have a problem with transformers, I just don’t want to be able to hear them from any more than 1m away.

I never had the problem, but for those who did, I was wondering if a Power Conditioner might help with doggy mains and PS hum. I know Naim does not like to see them, but if its a choice between eliminating the hum and some other side effects, it might be a way to keep your Naim Kit. Probably take a home demo to find out. They all work a little differently, so not sure which one to suggest.

Gazza, I’m not sure… I don’t think there is a huge difference at the end of the day… sure Watts started off as a logic chip designer and Naim started with audio amplifiers… but they both have a common interest… pursuit of improved audio replay.
With regard to digital, Naim outsource and use commercially available components for DACs … Watts has designed his own… and he is under contract (or similar) to Chord Electronics… so sure Naim and Watts use different converters and reconstruction filter techniques… however in the new Naim post 1704K top end products we might see a closing of approaches.
I’d be surprised if Naim continue with IIR filtering… with the current advantage of super low power components, there really is not much disadvantage to FIRs and a lot of upside… I am fairly sure Naim went with IIR because of the limitation of current noise in the componentry around the time the Naim DAC was developed and because of that sounded better… which essentially is still the DSP and DAC architecture in use today by Naim.

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